I say there are not enough heavyweight classes. I think that that young high school athletes are bigger today and we need to adjust our weight classes to attract more of these heavier football athletes into wrestling. This is what I proposed in another topic about the Best Kansas Heavyweight Ever.



I believe that the current spread of weight classes is unfair to the heavier wrestlers and does not offer them enough opportunity. I really do think that this discourages heavier football athletes from participating in wrestling.

These are our current weight classes, the pound difference from the next lower class and the pct jump to the limit of the next class. As you can see the jump in pound difference and pct difference increase dramatically once you go past 171.

103
112- 9 lbs - 8.74%
119- 7 lbs - 6.25%
125- 6 lbs - 5.04%
130- 5 lbs - 4.00%
135- 5 lbs - 3.85%
140- 5 lbs - 3.70%
145- 5 lbs - 3.57%
152- 7 lbs - 4.83%
160- 8 lbs - 5.26%
171- 11 lbs- 6.88%
189- 18 lbs-10.53%
215- 26 lbs-13.76%
285- 70 lbs-32.56%

Vince-

on some level you have a point. however, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on this being best for the sport. heres why...
most coaches have a hard time filling their line up cards anyway, and a lot of time the heavier weights are part of the problem. I do not think having more then 14 weight classes is a good idea. are you proposing those weight classes in addition to the ones already used from 171 down or are you proposing we restructure those so we still are left with 14? i think taking away weight classes down their is a bad idea because we already have a lot more good wrestlers there then at the bigger weights. most teams are deeper in the 130-145 range then they are in the 189-285 range. finally, heavyweight was weak this year altogether i felt. if you take some heavyweights out of the bracket it dillutes the competition even more. i'm sure your son would have wrestled 245 this year with the weight classes like that. That takes a state placer out of an already not very tough bracket. Their are also more kids that were quality heavyweights this year that would have dropped down. this could leave us in regionals with 4 or 5 kids in a bracket. i do not want to see kids go 0-2 at regionals and then wrestle at state. i understand your goal in wanting something like this but i think in the end it would hurt the quality of the product on the mat.

I disagree.

First - since you are not proposing raising the weight above 285 I don't see how a change would "attract heavier football athletes into wrestling". There already is a weight class for them - 215 or 285.

Second - your proposal would dilute the impact of wrestling in 189, 215 and 285 weight class in Kansas. How can a college coach compare a record of a kid who wrestled at 220 in Kansas with one that wrestled at 285 in another state? Let alone the problems you face when you wrestle outside the state. Of course, if your proposal is for these weight classes to apply on a National basis then you should stop right here b/c it isn't going to occur. We will be doing good to keep the weight classes we have (103 is in danger of being dropped)

Third - If you go back and look at your state champions in the HVY weight division from years past I would venture to beat that the majority are on the lighter of 285. Quite frankly, it is the rare high school kid who can weigh 285 and not have a lot of fat on him (not that it doesn't occur: Dwyane Zlatnik is an example). Look at the weights at some of the heavyweights in college - the OSU heavyweight is about 230. The Iowa State heavyweight is about 225.

Fourth - I disagree that the weight spread is unfair. Give me a in shape 230lb kid and I will take him against most 285lbrs any day.

coach neil posted the above in the other topic as to why my proposal for adding weight classes would be unrealistic. It was a good reply and I want to respond to several points he made.

First on coach neil's comment that coaches don't have enough time for 16 weight classes (he suggests actually reducing the classes to 12) and that the coaches need a little break on weekends for time with their families. I don't disagree with this but there would probably just need to be some adjustments. My son's team has been in several tournaments this year with 20 to 30 teams. If this is a problem perhaps teams should limit themselves to more manageable tournaments with half the teams or in more dual type tournaments like quad team dual formats.

A second point coach neil makes is that it would add problems for already strained budgets. Honestly I do not know how to answer that since I am not familiar with the team's budget structure. I have no idea of knowing how much adding two more weight classes would add to the budget. I work with my own company's budget and often have to make adjustments when problems arise. But again I am unaware of the exact problem for the high school teams and this is probably a good argument on not adding classes. But even if you are forced to be at the same amount of weight classes due to the budget, I think they should be adjusted to lower the weight differential and percentage differences for the heavier wrestlers.

coach neil states that a smaller wrestler can have success against a bigger wrestler. Yes that is true but if they are relatively equal athletically and in wrestling skills there is just very little chance a 220 wrestler is going to have a great deal of success against an athletic and skilled 260 to 285 pound wrestler.

It is also about competitive opportunity, yes they can compete for that one spot or lose 15 to 25 pounds to try to get down to 215 but that is very little opportunity for several interested heavier wrestlers on the same team in comparison to all the classes between 119 and 152 where you have all these small weight and percentage differences between classes.

coach neil's commented that coaches will tell you it is not the lack of weight classes that is keeping the big boys from coming out for wrestling but has more to do with how difficult a sport it is and how much dedication it takes. I have to ask you coach why is that factor any different for the bigger boys? I am not saying that you are incorrect about wrestling being a difficult sport but I don't think this factor would discourage heavier wrestlers any more than lighter wrestlers.

I agree with coach neil that there are plenty of opportunities for kids to wrestle but there are a lot more opportunities for the lighter and middle weight wrestlers. In my opinion there is not enough opportunities for the heavier wrestlers.

wrestle007,

I am really not proposing dropping weight classes unless that would be the only way to improve the opportunity for heavier athletes. Look at the percentage differences in by topic introduction, they are just too great once you start going past 171.

As far as your comment about the heavyweight class being weak this year. That is how this discussion came up in the other topic on the best heavyweight ever. Some were saying it was not a lack of quality for a few of the top heavyweights like Zlatnick, Disney, Andrus, Holly, Hybsha, and a few others but more in the overall depth of the class. Klint Deere said he did not know why the overall quality in heavyweight was down this year. This whole discussion stems from that.

I am suggesting there are plenty of high quality heavier athletes who would be very good wrestlers. I know we have them at my son's school Aquinas. I saw a couple of them in attendance at his Regional meet. These two signed to play D-1 football. They are excellent athletes and would have been great wrestlers. I know we have probably at least ten or more other 230 and over football athletes who could also be good wrestlers. I think if there was more opportunity for them with weight classes you would see more of them come out for wrestling.

One of the goals of this is to improve the quality of wrestling in the heavier weight classes by getting more of these football players out for wrestling. It would not happen overnight but it would in time.

Vince:

You bring up some very good points, but I have to agree with the rest of respondents that there has to be some level of moderation here.

Yes, it would be great to offer more opportunity for bigger guys, but one of the beauties of wrestling has always been the that it never discriminates against size. Everyone from the smallest to biggest kid in school can be a star. But just like football and baseball and volleyball, there can only be so many starting positions. Up until the addition of 215, the difference went from 189 to 275.

Ironically, back in the 1980's Iowa briefly experimented with having what amounted to "heavyweight" (everyone 185 to 230) and super-heavyweight (230 and up). You saw a lot of schools at all levels having trouble filling that "super" spot and after a few years it died off.

I was an 190-pound heavyweight my senior year in high school (at the request of my coach) back in the days when it was unlimited on weight. I actually enjoyed my best season wrestling against more than a few 300-pounders (back in the days before limits).

I agree that there should always be as many opportunities for kids to wrestle as possible, but there has to be a limit, and the weights we now have seem to be working well.

Good discussion Vince!

Fighting Obesity in the Public Schools!

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Mr. Disney;

On your first point, yes there is a class for them 215 and 285. That is not much for 70 pounds and a 32.56% jump though, is it? Compare that to the number of classes available to the 119 to 152 athlete where you have 7 classes available instead of two and the weight differential is only 33 pounds and the percentage jump from 119 to 152 is less at 27.73%.

How many football players are there on a typical high school team between 215 and 285? I know there a lot on my son's school team and on most of the schools that I saw them play. Is it really fair that they should only be competing for one or two spots that have a 70 lbs. differential between them?

On your second point yes I would be proposing for it nationally. Why could it not be done? They have adjusted the weights before and have added brackets. We did not always have a 215. Texas has a 180 so you could even just do it in Kansas but I would prefer to see it nationally. One of my goals with this proposal is to see more kids come out for wrestling and grow wrestling in general popularity. If we could do that we might actually start to see some growth in college programs and opportunities for scholarships. As far as comparing if Kansas had to be different without a national change, from my understanding you pretty much need to wrestle freestyle/greco and go to Fargo to be really noticed anyway so the 220 lbs kid would either go down to 215 or up to 285 for Fargo summer wrestling. When you are talking this level though you are in the elite level and I think they will be noticed even if the state weight class is different from the national one. Do you think that say if Romero Cotton was a 180 wrestler in Texas that he would drop off the radar screen for college coaches?

As far as your comments about how a light heavyweight can be competitive with a 285 1bs wrestler. I am willing to concede that to a point, but you do have guys though like Zlatnick out there and a 220 pounder who is of comparable ability is just going to be outmatched in that contest. Who do you like in a match up between a quality 125 wrestler and a quality 152 pound wrestler that would be a comparable difference? I would also probably take an in shape 125 lbs wrestler over an out of shape 152 lbs wrestler but let's not compare an out of shape kid to an in shape kid. Instead let's compare in shape equaling skilled kids against each other but one kid weighs 40 pounds more than the other. Give me a kid of equal abilities and 40 pounds lighter than Zlatnick and I will put my money on Zlatnick all the time.

I understand that we probably do not have enough over 215 quality in shape athletes in wrestling right now. But I also know from watching football teams that they are out there. I want to see us get more of them going from the football field to the wrestling mat at the end of their season.

Thank you for the compliment on the discussion. I think though that wrestling is today discriminating against size. Look at the percentage differential in classes for the weights over 171.

As far as what the weights used to be, I believe that kids are getting bigger and more athletic at these bigger sizes. In 1969 when I was a senior in high school we had about 4 lineman who weighed between 200 and 210. We were considered to be a big team then. You saw very few kids at 240 then. Now you see running backs that big. Unfortunately I do not think we are attracting enough of these bigger kids into wrestling.

Richard;

I will read your articles. I can only guess at this point that they have something to do with how out of shape and overweight kids are today.

I think part of the solution to that would be to get more of these heavier out of shape kids into wrestling programs. So I think your articles would have to be support for my goal of attracting more of the heavier kids into wrestling by adding weight classes.

Richard:

Thank you for including the articles. I just read one of them and I can see it does support my idea to add more weight classes for the heavier wrestlers to attract more of the heavier kids into wrestling. One of your articles suggests that a solution to the problem of obseity is to increase the opportunites for physical activity for them. That is exactly one of my goals by adding extra weight classes for the heavier kids, so I appreciate you adding these articles because I really think they give support to my idea.

Oh by the way, I don't consider my son at 220 to be obese today. I could also name some other kids who wrestle today that are even heavier at 240 to 260 pounds but I think most people know who they are. I doubt their dads or mothers consider them obese either. At one time before my senior year in college, I weighed just under 240 as I was doing some heavy weightlifting considering a comeback in football. I was in very good shape at that time. I was in a lot better shape than I am today around 225.

A big problem with wrestling is the idea many people have that you have to lose weight to wrestle. If you add more weights heaviers guys will not think they have to drop weight to wrestle. What will one more kid add to the cost of wrestling if they add a 240 lb class. Lets see you are already traveling there on a bus. That does not add anymore to the cost of travel. You will have to pay 10 a week to feed him that is only what 180 bucks per school. That is not that great of an increase. When schools blow $10,000 on a jungle gym for grade school kids, or $30,000 for fertilizers for their fields, I just dont see how spending $180 extra is going to break a school.

What I see is a lot of schools , not in 6A, have trouble filling weight classes now, to add one more is not a good idea.Small private schools already are strained on budgets as well. I would be in favor of going back to 12 weight classes, but its not going to happen. I would like to see..100, 110, 120,..130, 140, 150, 160, 170, 180, 200, 225, 290...

I'm going to make a statement that will probably upset a few on this matter, but from a spectator standpoint I would like to see at least 2 more weight classes in the upper weights. In my opinion there is more excitment to see in say from 160#-285# weight classes, not taking nothing away from the lower weights but the heavier weight classes Some say that it will be hard to fill a roster, but I have seen just as many opens in the lower weights. I agree with Disney, I believe most the State Champions at 285 were not the heaviest but the trimmest, and in best condition of the heavy weights.

Wrestling is the a great sport for it makes room for everyone to participate. What I mean by this is most the lower weights wrestling is a good sport, that they can excel in. Football, and basketball players are getting allot bigger than in years past, and I know a few wrestling programs that where 3 to 4 deep at from 189-285, and allot of kids drop out at this weight who are quality wrestlers because they a wrestling behind a Cotton, Disney, to mention a few type wrestlers. And with a few added weights in the upper classes there would be room for them. How many lower weights would be in the same boat if we had 30# jumps in weight classes, I believe more than a few.

The real thing to keep in mind is changing of times, like I said earlier kids are bigger now days than years ago, you have high schools with #285+ linemen, #200+ running backs, and so on and all 6'or taller. The smallest man on the team is the #160 water boy. Some may say that this is unhealthy, but some will also say that a 103# high school student is also I believe that was one reason for dropping the #98 slot years ago. There are way more kids cutting weight at the lower weights to a unhealthy level than at the upper weights.

So I suppose that this is another topic with arguments from every angle of the spectrum.

The heavier weights in college are filled with the trimmer guys. Especially the 197 guys. The Big 12 HWT champ, Zabriskie and Conrad at Minnesota are ripped. I know that in 6A 215, many of the in-shape 189 pounders could have dominated that weight. Your comment about the 160-285 classes being more exciting is a minority opinion though. There is far less scoring and in most cases more stalling. In most years, the 130 and 135 brackets are the deepest and toughest.

why is there an even number of weight classes? just add a 180lb class like texas has, then you wouldnt have all these crazy tiebreaker criteria for duals.

*Deleted*

We can't even get some of the big schools to fill rosters, so adding would be a disaster in my opinion.

Couture vs. Sylvia 45lbs. and 13 yrs.difference. With more weight classes Sylvia could still be champ.Bottom line the more skilled and in shape heavy wins most days.

Ohhh. Good point about Couture and Sylvia. Back to the original post...I know that it has been many years back, probably about 10, when the National Federation did some research to come up with new weight classes. Do any of you remember "squeezing" 125, 130, 135, and 140 into 126, 134, and 142? That was an absolute disaster back in the 93 season, if I remember correctly. Research showed that MOST schools had the most wrestlers in the room in the 125-152 areas, if my memory is anything close to correct, and the weights were adjusted back to reflect that after only one year, I believe. I would like to bring up several points. First and foremost, if a big kid does not come up through the kids program, and decides to give wrestling a try once he gets to High School, chances are that he will never be technical enough to have a lot of success. A kid that has had success on the football field but is getting his butt handed to him on the mats will not last. He will quit. All coaches will try to recruit those kids, and all coaches will have them quit. It's a fact. It is a very rare kid that will endure the frustration of a lack of immediate success, because his ego will not be able to handle it. There are exceptions, I know. Michael Baker of Smoky Valley was a state runner up at 189 in 4A after only three years of wrestling. I can not see the National Federation making any major changes to weight classes in the near future. Texas added the 180 pound class to bring a few larger, athletic kids onto the mats. I know that there has been some consideration of bumping 215 up to 220, and that might work. The bottom line is that an athletic kid will have success even if he is under sized. Jon Cook of Hays broke certification at 171, jumped to 215 the day before regionals, and got in the state championship match.