Stalin or Fidel I can understand. Jack Welch and GE? Seriously, how far do you think KSHSAA would get selling applicances?

Is the comparison to Stalin and Fidel anything like being compared to Hitler or Nazis? If so, that is a clear violation of Godwin's Law.

No the debate/discussion must go on! Nobody has violated Godwin's law except you! So is your intention to cease this discussion?

NO! I just think it's a day late and a dollar short. Again, I still question, where were all you people a couple of years ago when a small group of 4A coaches and the Coliseum detractors were so vocal? That high school gym may make the Coliseums deficiencies and the urban myths regarding the staff, small in comparison.

I was told the move to Salina was temporary and that they would be reunited. No one mentioned that this was a possible solution. 4A Pulled out on their own, correct? No solidarity... We need the tournament to be run like a business where there is accountability. If my job was to find the venue that would be the most successful then I would be fired for coming up with the present solution.

I am not sure how much college scouting is done at a state tournament...College coaches are pretty busy with thier own schedules that time of year...and their are a number of states that have state tournaments that weekend...so I am not sure how many kids colleges could look at in February anyway...but yeah the set up for kS state tournaments is not ideal...but if you want to do what is best for kids/athletes...this one weekend ordeal is not the biggest battle...the 3 months that our bordering states get to work with their kids in the spring is far more preventive to our kids getting scholarships than one weekend of wrestling...how many college coaches are at National duals and Fargo?...and how far are we behind other states in July, when they have been working out since March...our Team KS staff does an incredible job...if they were on equal footing with everyone else what then?

Just like the 5A and 6A people didn't say anything when 4A was moved to Salina. What goes around comes around! [/quote]


Sportsfan I think that you are sadly mistaken here. The reason that the 5A and 6A peopel didn't say anything when the 4A moved to Salina is because the 4A people asked for that move. They think they are better than the other divisions for some reason.

".. .they only used 9 when 4A was at the coliseum." But didn't they go to four mats per class when 4A moved to Salina? Many coaches I have talked to would not really want to to back to three mats--though I personally believe we get done too early on Friday nights using four mats. I am, however, in a distinct minority on this one.

"If you’re talking about mat space we used to hold a kids tournament with 12 mats. With all kinds of fan accommodation. Sure it’s a barn but the place used to rock during the hay days of KSU basket ball. I would assume that you remember that far back?"
Oh yes, I remember seeing Nick Pino play! But, with that many mats on the floor you had no floor seating, did you? That is the problem with seating at Ahearn; It is big enough to hold 8 mats, but then you give up the floor seating.

"I do know that Topeka was an option for all groups to be reunited if they were willing to move up a week or back a week in KSHSAA scheduling needs. For some reason this was not an option to the board. Everyone has an off week so why not make it two?"
Not all schools have the same off week. To align off weeks would take a couple of years of schedule changes as contracts would run their course and tournaments moved to different dates, etc.

"I know the kids could use a break to heal up and get their school work caught up."
Wow, some kids have a real problem holding their weight at the end of the season as it is. Also, If you go a week later with the KSHSAA tournament you run smack dab into KSHSAA BB sub-states. I know this is a wrestling site and BB does not matter, but it does matter to those of us who have to administer the events, provide buses and drivers, supervision, etc. etc. It would be a NIGHTMARE to be doing both at once.

"I’m just struggling with the fact that this has been talked about for over two years and Olathe Northwest was the best solution! I don’t believe that all options were evaluated fairly and without forward thinking!"
I don't know Mark; I truly believe that Mr. Bowden would have jumped at a better option and I am pretty sure he was not sitting on his hands the entire time.
I spoke with him about this a couple of times in the past year and it was obvious he was really stressed about it.

"I know there is not a gym big enough to hold 321A out west… I just wanted your opinion whether you would consider this (High School Gym) a viable option if the Hays location was unavailable?"
If there were no other options, what would the better option be?

The 2003-04 season was the inaugural season of Charles Koch Arena - the 10,400-seat arena which Shocker fans know as the home venue for Wichita State basketball and volleyball competition.


Is this arena not at least big enough to hold 5a and 6a and probably add 4a to it? Why are we not looking at arenas like this. If there is a scheduling conflict work a couple years out see if we can move a week or they can accomidate. Also what about the Wichita coliseum after its done getting modernized? Are their plans to move back. It is simply unacceptable in today's day and age to wrestle a state championship at a HS. If not in Wichita then look at other options.

Missouri has figured out a way to wrestle both HS and Kids on Mizzou's campus and they have the same scheduling issues. I know Missou has wrestling and our major colleges do not, but I would doubt if our leadership was ever told "No we can't host because we don't offer wrestling" by any of our major colleges. I just don't think we have tried that hard.

24/7

I was very disappointed to see that the 45&6A was divided up. I have always enjoyed watching the best wrestlers from all of these classes and even wished I could watch the 123A tournament as well. Other than enjoying the great wrestling it has become somewhat of a reunion of old friends for me. Now I have to choose which friends and wrestlers to watch, what a disappointment. Think about all of the great teams and wrestlers you have not been able to watch just do to the fact that 123A and 456A have been at separate sites. I have enjoyed both venues, but after going out of state and watching the Nebraska state tournament I will never agree with holding the tournaments at separate sites. To hold all of the tournaments at one site you would have to be able to put down eight mats, run the tournament over a three day period, and have a place that would hold 10-15 thousand people. You could have a 123A and 4A session then a 456A session. When you get down to the semifinals you could run all classes during the same session. Think about what a great tournament we could have if we pooled all of our best resources into one tournament. Not to mention that all classes could be televised. I firmly believe the KSHSAA would save thousands of dollars and increase attendance if they held all of these tournaments in one building. I do agree that the Kansas coliseum is a poor and outdated site, that appears to have had very little updating since it was built. I disagree with the fact that college coaches don't recruit kids form these tournaments. College coaches always send representatives to these tournaments and some kids do get discovered that have not been in the mainstream media. I have always looked forward to the Kansas state wrestling tournament and even drove back from Nebraska every year just to watch. However, the decision to divide the different classes has turned me off to the state tournament and if Hutch was not hosting I'm not sure I would be attending.

You have just dated yourself Egg... your OLD! But I remember Nick crussin town in his VW and sitting in the back seat to drive, man that dude had alot of hair on his back!

I have on several occasion spoke with Mr. Bowden trying to resolve this dilemma, I know and understand the kind of pain he has experienced, this is not attack against Rick. But the board knew this was a problem since my youngest was a freshman he now will be a senior. So to say that there wasn’t time to find a solution I refuse to believe. They could have signed a contract 3 years ago with someone in the state. Now my son will most likely wrestle his last matches in the same environment that he started his high school career a “High School Gym” As I have said before, State is a big deal to the kids, schools, families and fans. These people deserve better.

My second question is… do you really get to sit on the floor in Hays or do they make you guys sit in the stands? You mentioned floor seating! There really wasn’t a bad seat in the house at Ahearn, when I was a kid they used to hang in the rafters to watch games… If it was good enough for Bobby Kennedy it’s good enough for High school wrestling!

As a 5A coach I am very disappointed to be moving to a high school arena next year for state. I do think that our wrestlers who have worked so hard deserve more recognition than simply wrestling in another high school gym. However, I do not think the achivevement of a wrestler winning a state championship or a state medal will be diminished. Unfortunately what we have in Kansas is a lack of options. We don't have one available facility in the state that could hold Kansas's tournaments together in the present two day format. I understand some of the arguements against a 3 day meet, however I do think it is time to look more closely at that option to bring the meet to a better venue.

When I spoke to Mr. Bowden at Wichita this year, he was definitely not pleased with his present options. I know he is very greatful for the communities that stepped up to take on the 5A and 6A tournaments, but he too wanted a larger venue. The problem is that our facilities in Kansas are not adequate. I asked him specifically about Ahearn and he said they had inquired and been turned down by KSU. This was due to parking issues as well as the fact that Ahern is used for indoor practice for many of the K-State spring sports. K-State's postion is that it would not be fair for the college to kick out their own athletes to accomodate high school athletes (can anyone argue with that). The problem with Bramlage was floor space as well as that is where the K-State basketball teams practice, and they would not be willing to give up their practice times that late into their season.

I have several questions for those who are obviously upset about this situation:

1. What are the better, VIABLE options for a venue that weekend that could have 8-12 mats down with adequate seating?

The coliseum booked a boat show, Topeka has the Shriners, K-State said no, I would be shocked to death if KU were willing to give up Allen field house for a weekend (or even if it could hold the mats). I have no idea of the floor space at WSU's arena. I do know that Rick was looking under every rock to find the best possible solution for our wrestlers.

2. How many of you complaining actually attended one of the state tournaments last year?

This question was posed by another poster, but I think it deserves closer attention. The real problem with Wichita was a dollar and cents problem for the KSHSAA. I personally was never a fan of the coliseum (trash overflowing from garbage bins, toilets overflowing, security guards walking around waking wrestlers up trying to sleep between matches- and this was all on the lower level where only the competitors were!). But the KSHSAA problem was that not enough people showed up to watch for the amount they had to shell out to rent the coliseum. I think it is crazy for a grade schooler to wrestle that weekend at a kids tournament instead of going to watch High School state. Those kids should be at the state tourney watching, learning, and dreaming about the time they would be winning their state championships wrestling for their high school team. I personally remember going to Hays and being in awe at the atmosphere, the crowds, and of course the wrestlers from my home town that I idolized. If more people came to watch, I bet we would still be in the coliseum.

Fortunately this is not a permanent solution. Mr. Bowden indicated there were several options that may open up in the future. He said facilities in Park City and Junction City were scheduled to begin construction, and that the KSHSAA would continue to active be search for larger locations in the future.

I would say for the time being we have to swallow this bitter pill, but if our fan support dies down and no one shows up to watch our wrestlers compete at the biggest tournament of the year (regardless of location) then we will probably be stuck there. If we get large crowds and the KSHSAA can go to larger venues and show that large #'s of people will attend these events, than that will make their bargaining power greater- and will be what is best for our wrestlers.

Competitors, coaches and administration are allowed on the floor at Hays though by the time finals roll the door keepers are tired of fighting it and most people with any "good reason" at all are allowed on the floor. My concern about seating on the floor at Ahearn is probably not an issue--assume that Ahearn is handicap accessible and has elevators available for those who may need them.

The problem at KSU or KU or at Washburn etc, is the same: their dang BB seasons. Those guys never seem to have a set schedule until right before the season starts; and TV can muck things up even after that. Our high school league plays the semi-finals and finals of the BB tournament at the coliseum at FHSU. We sometimes have to perform scheduling gymnastics to work around their BB schedule. Moving a state wrestling tournament around would present some significant issues. Not too many years ago special schedules had to be implemented for the 1A State BB tournament at Hays because FHSU thought they were going to host a NCAA Div II regional tournament.

I believe that Mr. Bowden did exhaust the possibilities he had. More time would not have made the possibilities before him any more or less appealing.

Mann

I am very disappointed to find out that the state tournament would still be split up. To find out that 2 of them will be in high school gym's is ridiculous! I went to Wichita on the friday of state and Salina for the saturday of state (because I'm from 4a) and was also told it was a temporary thing. Not one single person I have talked to agrees with the seperating of 4a from 5a & 6a. Some people say it's all about the atmosphere; yes in a way it is, but that would be selfish of us spectators. Alot of those good wrestlers get noticed by collegiate coaches because of our combined state venue. I agree that we need some people that will work and fight to find a way to get it back the way it used to be. Yes 4a is fun to watch, but there are also remarkeable wrestlers in 5a & 6a that many fans go to watch and it is very disappointing when you are limited to only one class.

With all due respect Mr. Mann, you speak from a lack of knowledge.

The KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden were offered a two year contract by the Kansas Coliseum prior to the 2006 tournament which the KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden turned down, agreeing to a one year contract which expired in 2007.

The Coliseum booked the boat show simply because of the open date which KSHSAA created.

I attended the 6-5-4A tournament every year and for most of those years volunteeded to work a table, run bout cards, clean vomit from the mat, mop the mats betweem sessions, haul trash from the floor, call Coliseum maintenance personnel to clean up restrooms after unsupervised high school athletes crammed junk into urinals and toilets, and on one occasion, had the privilege of supervising a high school athlete retrieve a team members under garment which I witnessed him place in the urinal while several of his teamates relieved themselves in the soon to be overflowing urinal. It was quite funny for the youth until they were forced with the option of placing their hand in the now full urinal to clear the obstruction or be turned in to their high school administration.

To state that Mr. Bowden and the KSHSAA handled this business matter in a responsible manner is simply false.

Kale that would be sacrilege to wrestle in a community that the inventor of basket ball was KU’s first Coach of their fist game!

I know Mr. Bowden to be an intelligent man and I am certain he is aware the facility to be constructed in both Junction City and Park City, if built to the present design standards, will seat approximately 5,000 and will not have the required floor space to host the combined tournaments.

The only facility large enough to accomodate the tournament will be in Wichita and construction is scheduled to commence in the fall of 2007.

"With all due respect Mr. Mann, you speak from a lack of knowledge.

The KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden were offered a two year contract by the Kansas Coliseum prior to the 2006 tournament which the KSHSAA and Mr. Bowden turned down, agreeing to a one year contract which expired in 2007."

My statement was that I believed Mr. Bowden had exhausted the possibilities before him. And will all due respect, Mr. Salyer, hindsight is always 20-20.

Check this out Egg! This has to be our man!

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It would be nice to see the 6As, 5As and 4As together again in Wichita in the new arena. As has been said, it is unfortunate that for at least the next few years the classes are all going to be split up, but hopefully something can be worked out.

But I don't think jumping up and down on Mr. Bowden is fair. My experience with Rick Bowden always was that he was thoughtful and professional and acted in the best interest of the sport, the coaches and the athletes.

4A left because the 4A schools as a whole wanted the move. The 5As and 6As were moved because there were constant complaints about Wichita's facility. As was pointed out earlier, to hold a three-class tournament, you really need a facility that can hold eight mats and seat between 10 and 15 thousand. And a three-day tournament should be considered.

It is wonderful to hear that there are that many people who want to see all three classes together. It speaks a great deal to the interest and support wrestling has in Kansas. But without an acceptable facility available, no one can expect the coaches and athletes to compete in a sub-standard one. Hopefully the new arena in Wichita can fill that need.