great post coach

I agree with Klint Deere. This was an excellent post. The class of 2009 and beyond are very fortunate to have this great opportunity that Baker University is presenting to them.

Just so we are using facts here. This is what it costs to go to Baker this year. You can add all that up for yourselves. I think it is a great school don't get me wrong but lets not be naive about what it costs.

2008-2009 EDUCATIONAL COSTS
Year Per
Semester

TUITION
Full-time undergraduates ( 12 - 18 hours) $19,880.00 $9,940.00
Part-time undergraduates ( 1-11 hours) $600.00 per c/h
Overload (over 18 hours) $365.00 per c/h
Summer school $365.00 per c/h
Interterm session only $365.00 per c/h
High School Tuition $100.00 per c/h

ROOM
Irwin/Gessner Double Occupancy $2,950.00 $1,475.00
Irwin/Gessner Single Occupancy $4,300.00 $2,150.00
New Hall Double $3,800.00 $1,900.00
New Hall Single $4,500.00 $2,250.00
Apartments $4,700.00 $2,350.00
Apartments - summer $160.00 per week

BOARD
14 meal flex plan (14 meals per week plus $150 per semester on declining balance card) $3,420.00 $1,710.00
10 meal flex plan (10 meals per week plus $125 per semester on declining balance card) $3,250.00 $1,625.00
10 meal plan $3000.00 $1,500.00
Commuter Plan TBA

NEW STUDENTS
Confirmation deposit (collected from all new students) $100.00
Matriculation Fee (collected first semester of enrollment) $80.00

OTHER FEES
Graduation fee charged when senior status attained $75.00
Music private lesson fee - NONREFUNDABLE $180.00 per half hour lesson
Advanced Placement Fee $35.00
Returned check charge $25.00
Student ID card - replacement fee $15.00 each
Student teaching fee $15.00 per c/h
Transcript request $5.00 each
Instructional Fees $15 to $50/course


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Coach Westfahl:

Yes the costs can be high but so can be the scholarships and aid. We talked about this on another topic a few weeks ago but in light of your posts on this topic, I think it bears repeating.
Here is a link to their sample award letter for the current year.

http://www.bakeru.edu/index.php?module=articles&func=display&aid=453

Sample Award Letter for Current Academic Year
Cost of tuition, fees, room, and . . . . . meals for 2008-09. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $26,330

Kansas Comprehensive Grant for in-state . . . . . . . . . . Out-of State Grant for others:. . . . . . . . . . . $2,000*

Foundation Scholarship . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7,000

Academic Leadership Scholarship . . . . . . . .1,500

Talent Participation Award . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,000

Outside Scholarship. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,500

Federal Pell Grant. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 500**

Federal SEOG Grant . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .100***

Federal Perkins Loan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,500***

Federal Work Eligibility . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,782

Fed. Subsidized Stafford Loan . . . . . . . . . . . 3,500

Fed. Unsubsidized Stafford Loan . . . . . . . . . 2,000

Total Aid = $23,382



Additional options available to cover balance due::

Interest-free payment plan

Federal Parent Loan for Undergraduate Students (PLUS Loan)

Private educational loan - credit-based


*Ranges from $200-3000 per year; need-based

**Ranges from $890-$4,731 for 2008-09; need based

***Need-based and amount depends on funds available

Coach Westfahl:

This is an earlier post from Kit Harris on the subject:

Vince;
This is kind of going down a road that can get a little ugly but hey since we are just sort of debating here, I will take that ugly little road. My biggest fear, and one that I see being a bigger and bigger problem, is that wrestling, like Baseball, Tennis, Golf, and so many other sports are going to become sports for the rich and famous. Kit wrote, "The typical BU student has strong academic credentials and qualify for much financial aid (need, scholarships, dual sports, etc.). Or they are just simply wealthy enough to pay the tuition amount". In a perfect world that would happen. I coached and taught in this very imperfect world and I can tell you that kids who are disadvantaged monetarily are working so hard to stay alive that academics sort of suffer. They are smart enough but they are spending most of their energy surviving in poverty. Some of them are tremendous wrestlers. None of them will be going to school at Baker. They also didn't go to Rockhurst, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. James, or a lot of other very wonderful but pricey institutions. They could not afford to pay several thousand dollars for camps, freestyle tourneys, private coaching and all the other advantages that I see more and more kids being able to take advantage of.

I hate to see wrestling become a sport for the affluent but it is headed down that path right now. Now those people who are in that advantaged position will rise up and deny that this rift exists, but I worked for a good deal of my life on the other side of that rift and believe me when I tell you that it is a very wide canyon. Baker is on the wealthy side of that canyon. Nothing wrong with that but it is an obvious fact.

I am glad another school in Kansas is wrestling. I wish it was in a place that could give many kids hope. My fear is that it is not. This is not a right or a wrong, it is simply the way things seem to be going. I am not disparaging Baker. I coached against them for a while and I have much respect for them. See it is an ugly road isn't it. I didn't really want to go down it but hey it is reality.

By the way we used to carry around a "sample award letter" when we recruited too. The fact is very very few kids got award letters that resembled the "sample" that we showed them. There is a reason why schools in the Heart of America and the KCAC are so small. It is not because they are not quality they certainly are. It is because they cost like and Ivy League school.

Westfahl,

If you really support giving more opportunities for Kansas wrestlers why do your posts have such a negative and skeptical tone? My mom used to say "Beggars can't be choosers!" In todays world wrestlers are definitlely in the begging category! I applaud Dan Harris' efforts to swim up river and do the opposite of what all of the D1 schools are doing. Who cares if it costs more!? If you want something bad enough you will figure out how to get it whether you come from either side of the canyon. To say that those with lesser economic backgrounds are disadvantaged when it comes to getting a higher educational opportunity is sour grapes! Surely since you have been in this world you know what a family has to complete to get financial aid. Surely you know what a pell grant is and what is available to those "with need" versus those who supposedly have "no need". Wrestling, just like everything else in America, is an equal opportunity sport but sometimes you have to work to make your opportunities!

You should be thankful we have a new program hope that it works out. Who cares where the coach came from or how much it cost to go to school there. Until you start giving your money to Baker I don't think you have a leg to stand on with your critical and skeptical remarks.

Hats off to Dan Harris, Coach May, and Baker University.

Getting ready to send my first born to college and to wrestle, i cannot say that $ was not a HUGE factor in the schools we considered.

We had to strike some sort of balance and found an outstanding ACADEMIC scholarship opportunity in New Mexico Highlands that covers his tutition expenses. Kansas may want to look in to how NM sets up their lottery and ZIA scholarships there, they have ample opportunities for their college bound students to get a leg up. The school has comparable issues with Fort Hays with the isolation of the area and they are making strides to enhance their accomodations, focus on winning programs.

Had money not been an object he would have no doubt followed his former summer and freestyle coach Beau Vest to Dana College or gone to York with former Kansan and Topeka Terminator Greg Smith. We qualify for ample financial aid, but a loan debt close to 50-100,000, was not something we could afford to be saddled with. He may decide that may be what he is comfortable with in future and he may end up one of those places or even Baker after a year in the wilds of New Mexico.

I am glad that Baker has come through, i personally helped raise some funds for the program at the state freestyle tournament and will support their program and growth.

My daughter went to Baker on a cheerleading scholarship's(about what you will get for wrestling) and it was still alot of money when she got done. Baker work hard to help find extra money for you! she love her time there and it a great school and well taking care of.

The state funded 4 year institutions have not stepped up and I know of 2 Big 12 schools (who have been in the black financially) that could do it if they had the kids of the state in mind. But they do not have the kids in mind - instead they have huge salaries, pensions plans, car allowances, travel budgets of the select few. I am convinced that we need some sort of media coverage (TV, newspaper, internet) interviewing some of the fat cats - AD's, Presidents, etc. We need to reach the Kansas Board of Regents, Senators, Congressmen and Congresswomen, Governor, and other politicians and put pressure on the select few decision makers affecting our kids future. There has been a nice proposal and slide show put together for hopes of presenting it to Administartors of the Kansas State institutions. They will not give the group of volunteers and taxpayers the time of day to even review our efforts. This is not acceptable in my mind since the ground/land and the buildings they work in have been paid for by current, past and future residents and businesses of the state of Kansas. The Junior Colleges and Fort Hays are excellent opportunities - but they do not fill all of the Demand. That is evident by kids that have left the state for their opportunity.

This is the most logical reply to this entire thread! The post secondary "education" system is broken! I know because I got the three kids in college!

Wow I don't quite know what to reply to first so I will just say this in general. It is difficult to talk about money and opportunity to people who have it or are around it. None of my recent posts were in response to the coaching change. Will, we were talking about money there not the coach. That ended a while ago. It seems to me that when you start to talk about where wrestling is going in terms of advantaged kids verses disadvantaged kids people start to tell you that you are being negative. It would be a lot more positive if we just wouldn't ever mention it. The problem with that is, those kids don't go away. True you won't see them at Baker or St. James or St. Thomas, but they will still be there and hopefully some "negative" people will think about them and try to find some opportunities for them also. We were just having a conversation here fellas. If it makes you mad well so be it. Baker didn't cause the problem, never said they did. If they do well thats just great. That really wasn't what I was talking about. But you probably know that.

By the way Will, those kids that I was talking about don't want to be "beggars" but they would like to be "choosers". Hope those aren't mutually exclusive. Wait lol I hope they are.... maybe.

I have to agree with westfahl, Not many kids will be able to afford Baker. The financial aid letter had pell grant and other government grants listed which basically just goes to the poor. A middle class family would have to take out a huge amount of loans to send their kid to Baker. I think Baker will get the wealthier kids whose parents can afford to foot the bill and the kids who qualify for all of the grants and financial aid. Most middle class families will not be able to afford it even with academic and athletic scholorships. The financial aid letter had students taking out $7,000 in loans per year and this still came up $3ooo-$4000 short.Once the federal grants to low income students are removed it would be over $5000 short. I just think that there are a lot more affordable options out there that doesn't saddle kids with $50,000 worth of loans once they graduate. I think it's great that Kansas has added another 4year wrestling school, I just don't think the majority of the kids will benefit from it.

tbau, I looked over their rosters for football, basketball and cross country. I have to believe there are quite a few athletes from middle class families on those rosters. I also believe there have been quite a few poor and middle class athletes at Baker University over the years. I would encourage wrestlers no matter what your economic situation is to give Baker University a chance and see what type of financial package that Baker University is able to put together for you and then to compare it to what is available to you at other institutions.

Coach Westphal, I hear what you are saying about the potential of wrestling becoming an elitist sport. Unfortunately a lot of sports are becoming that way with all the one sport year around specialization that occurs today in sports. Unfortunately wrestling at the youth level seems to require more time and travel even at the early stages than other sports. We all know that travel costs are high. This makes it difficult for wrestlers from poor and even middle class families. Many wrestlers and families can't afford to spend a good portion of time and resources traveling to summer freestyle/greco competitions that help a wrestler progress in the sport. Many of these young wrestlers need to spend their time and energy working jobs during the summer. Like Will said though if an athlete wants it bad enough, they still seem to find a way to succeed. I do agree though it is becoming more difficult to succeed in this environment for an athlete from a poorer family. That is true for about all sports anymore. All that being said, I don't think it has anything to do with this opportunity being offered by Baker University or the topic of Jimmy May being named its first coach. In fact I believe this new program will give some more opportunity for kids who otherwise might not be able to afford it to both go to school and wrestle in college.

Life is about choices. Some parents will choose their kids over themselves, some will not. Some kids will choose basketball. Some will choose band. Today there are more choices than ever before! Some kids choose to be mediocre and a few choose to excel. It is no different than life. Some adults choose college some choose a job. But it is a choice. There are scholarships, grants, loans, part time jobs, etc. There are millions of untapped dollars. If you choose college whether it is at Baker, Ft. Hays, Johnson County, or KU you can find a way. The downside to every choice is that there is a sacrifice. Those who choose college athletics will have to work harder than those who do not just like those who do not. The sacrifices may seem unfair or even enormous but in my opinion the American Dream is still alive and well.

As far as elitist are concerned. I do not consider our family as such. The most money my father ever made in one year was $15,000! I paid my own way through Ft. Hays and I have worked my tail off since graduating. I choose to spend my money on wrestling with my boys. I don't spend it on alcohol, cigarettes, gambling, drugs, or other vices. We sacrifice vacation time to go to wrestling events and I always try to share these experiences with as many other wrestlers as possible. I lost count of the number of 15 passenger vans we have rented, the number of hotel rooms we have crammed five boys into, and the number of matches I have watched over these past eleven years. If you want something bad enough you just figure out a way to make it happen!

I've been wanting to respond to some comments, but I haven't been able to find the time lately, I have a quick minute, I will try to brief but am not good at that! I know long posts are hard to read.

There are PLENTY of BU students who are middle class, I know this firsthand, I have been around the school since 1982. It is MOST DEFINITELY NOT a school for the rich and rich alone! If you were around the place much, you would laugh at that thought! Many down to earth, real middle class folk walking around! It is a GREAT place!

"Not many will benefit??"
If there are 25-35 (or more?) wrestlers on BU's roster then a good number of kids are having the opportunity to be able to get a good education and continue their wrestling careers...that is a good thing. Add that number of kids up over the years and a lot are benefitting. Most importantly, it is all about EDUCATION. Kids are getting degrees and advancing to the careers of their choice! Kids have to take care of business in the classroom at Baker (like any school) or they won't cut it.

"Why enrollment is low??"
The enrollment numbers are around 1,000 (+/- 200) at most of these small private schools because of several reasons: #1, the school is not for everyone (some kids want bigger schools, some kids don't qualify for the financial aide package to make it feasible, and MOSTLY the school is for kids who have taken care of business in the classroom). Reason #2, there are SO MANY of these schools not only in Kansas, but throughout the entire Midwest. Why is this? I think it's probably related to the fact that the Midwest is FULL of that particular demographic = moderate income, hard-working folk. Think about it, wouldn't these schools fold if that wasn't the case???? I was told by a parent yesterday that they are paying $12,000 to send their child to KU and that many public school students are paying from $12,000 to $15,000/year. If small private schools cost $25,000, much of that difference is often made up with financial aide/scholarships. This is not the case for everybody, as I have admitted, but it is the case for many. If there were fewer of these schools then enrollments would be higher. Hopefully that responds to that question.

"Putting money on somebody's coffers??"
Sorry, not the motive for starting the program! Whose "coffers"? Pockets, salaries? That strikes a nerve, have to respond. Anybody who knows (like myself, my parents have worked at Baker since 1982), most employees at schools such as BU are paid less than public school employees in similar positions (college admin salary is usually lower than public school admin pay, many professors are paid less than public school teachers, etc.) Nobody is getting rich as a BU employee, as a matter of fact, much less so than public school teachers. Not sure what coffers are being referred to, but small schools need enrollment to survive, and adding sports can be a great way to boost numbers. I grew up with both parents working as BU employees, and they have stayed put b/c they have given their heart/souls to the place, they love it, not b/c they were/are making much money. My mom started as a tutor in Academic Skills Center and now has a PhD and is Dean of Education Department, she is an amazing person, definitely one my heroes, very wise and full of integrity...I am getting sidetracked, as usual.

And as for original point of the thread started by Mr. Westfahl...Coach May being hired. He was determined the top choice out of a pool of very good applicants. The hiring decision made sense to me. I have always tried my hardest to be a proud and contributive member of the KANSAS WRESTLING community, but if it means I have to take on a "no outsiders" attitude, then you can count me out.

I, for one, am VERY excited to welcome Coach May to the Midwest, to Kansas, and to Baldwin City. He has been great to get to know and I like his enthusiasm and expertise. When I first read this thread, I made sure to call him and let him know not all Kansans would be as unwelcoming. I assured him he would come across many nice and supportive people in his time here. He has been gracious about it all, he continues to come across to me as a very good person. And I am excited to help him in any way I can! I am also very proud of my dad for the work/efforts he has put toward this, nobody knows this more than I do and I am going to defend him as his VERY PROUD son as often as I need to for any professional decision he makes or is involved in, especially when it was a sound one such as this. Again, there were some GREAT applicants, which means many unhappy parties, unfortunately. But Coach May is a very impressive person and I congratulate him for winning the job.

I knew whoever was first coach had a challenging task. However, it is frustrating Mr. Westfahl to see that you want to add to that struggle and are determined to put a lot of time/effort to sabotage the efforts of BU/Coach May because you don't like the hiring decision (you stated that you would support the program NONE and you have put continual effort towards publicly posted criticism).

I often say stupid and/or confusing things that don't make sense, that is why I usually try to have things like this proofread, but I don't have time in this instance. So I apologize in advance if I am incorrect anywhere or say anything out of line, don't want to do that. I will try to be sure to edit thread if I come across any misinformation (please help with this readers). I am in hurry and typing fast, have to get back to my kids who are patiently waiting for me in other room, I hate when I keep them waiting on me.

Let me know if I can help answer any questions or do anything else. I AM EXCITED ABOUT NEW COLLEGE WRESTLING PROGRAM IN KANSAS! THIS IS AN EXCITING TIME!

GO WILDCATS!

GO KANSAS!

Kit Harris
Baldwin City USA (and GO BULLDOGS, too!)

Kit I was just stating an opinion. Just to set the record straight, I only spent about four minutes total on this deal and really don't give it any thought until I see what you guys write and then I write back. It's more like a conversation than some life long vendetta. I think everybody ought to take a deep breath and realize that what any of us think really isn't as important as we think it is. Believe me I learned that long ago. If you guys think it matters what I think well........ I am the guy that knows it doesn't. Not everyone in this world has to agree with you though and I certainly reserve that right for myself and for all of you. Do I back Kansas guys, you bet I do. Do I think wrestling is going toward the elite and privledged, I sure do. I am not ashamed of either of those two positions I just can't figure out why taking them offends you all so much. Hey that upped me to six minutes total on this whole deal. Not really a quest is it?

As far as all that wrestling community stuff, I have sort of been a part of that for about forty years or so, so I kind of understand that more than you might think Kit. One thing I know about it after all that time is that sometimes it gets to be a stuffy little community and a little conversation is a good thing when that happens. There is room in that community for more than one way of thinking and when there isn't, some kids begin to be left out. Talking is not always a bad thing and other points of view keep us thinking. Not everyone will agree with you but that's ok. I am done with this though, that was the last thought in the "continual whatever". Later fellas.

I find it most interesting that a post on Coach May has boiled down the economics of wrestling. I say that because much of the success the Coach May experienced at Eldorado High School was forged with students/wrestlers of low income families. Eldorado High School is not a school of rich kids. In fact many of the students come from the trailer parks of East Las Vegas and the ghettos of North Las Vegas (maybe why they are so tough?). Working with disadvantaged youth/young adults is Coach May's forte, and something that I believe he will continue to do at Baker. Beyond being an excellent wrestling coach, he has sought to make a difference in the lives of young people, especially those who need wrestling and the values that it instills most.

Yes, the college game, especially at a private institution such as Baker, is a different wrestling match than at the high school level. But one who appreciates providing opportunities to those who are not afforded them is likely to continue in that tradition. No, it won't be easy, but starting a program from scratch at any level is an arduous task. Which is why I believe Dan Harris commendably brought in Coach May to see it to this program to fruition. Get your 'dynasty' tags ready, Baker will be a force! Go wildcats!!

Mr. Westfahl,

Your "just stating an opinion" was public criticism. I think that is very disrespectful. You started this thread with public criticism of somebody who has done no moral wrong and then turn around and ask "why does that offend us so much." I think others were just discussing the issue with you, but yes, I was offended. It involved my father, you publicly criticized him and I know how hard he has worked to make this program a reality in a very tough situation at Baker University. He is a good person and not deserving of that. Your criticism was all because the hired coach was not from your favorite state. Friendships and loyalties don't have to be bound by a state border, do they? Makes me want to make sure I never become that discriminatory. Yes, I have chosen to disagree with you and that part is no problem. It is the public criticism approach that you took from the beginning that I can not support. You may be communicating "conversationally" now, but in the beginning you took on a stance of public and critical attack.

I don't care how many "minutes" you put into this, I feel your actions (whether they took six minutes or six days) to be disrespectful to somebody who didn't deserve it and to a university I care a lot about, and I chose to stand up and speak out.

I commend and respect your 40 years of committment to wrestling and most importantly as an educator.

Hopefully, Coach May can now be embraced as a "Kansas guy" because he has accepted a coaching position to help advance wrestling in our state. He certainly has expressed a strong interest in getting to know as many people as he can in the state in a positive way! I think all will like him, and when it comes to wrestling, he certainly knows what he is doing. Best of luck to our new KANSAS GUY and GO WILDCATS!

Kit Harris

I absolutely agree!



I would love to see it. That is what I think we are all hoping for.