Vince, then stick to your support of Shawn's suggestion and drop your idea of moving the minimum to 108. Many of us are very tired of your constant agenda to get more heavy weight opportunities when those weights are not even full now. True 103 is not full either, but there are as many 103's as there are heavy's wreslting. And probably more that stick with it.

Where your statements fall apart is that football is a sport for big kids, as they move higher in competition it's for even bigger kids. Wrestling is a sport that even at the higest level there is a opportunity for every size. According to your logic should we take out 121 lbs at the Olympics, because it is normally wrestled by younger wrestlers not fully developed? There is no place for 121 lb footbalh players at the highest levels, but the beauty of wrestling is a 5'2 wrestler at 121 pounds can wrestle in the olympics. Go Spencer Mango!

RJohnson if heavy was full and then I would agree we need more weights up above, but 285 is no more full than 103. It's 12% weight difference at 215 and a 9% at 112. That is pretty comparible.

Where do you think does 121 pounders came from anyway????

24/7

24/7,

I definitely do not want to see 121 dropped in international wrestling and I agree that is a very good reason for lighter weight classes in high school.

The differential between 215 and 189 is actually 13.76%. The differential between 215 and 285 is 32.56%. The percentage differentials after 103 and 112 are much lower from about 3.5% to 6%. I also truly believe that there would be more heavier football players wrestling if there were more opportunities for them. This conversation started up on this topic because it was pointed out that one team may lose a very good wrestler next year due to being faced with 2 state champions in 215 and 285 at his school and that he might just concentrate on football instead. I probably should not have brought it up on this topic. I apologize.

24/7

I think we all have been around enough wrestling that we have all been at a tournament that had open spots, and teams without a full roster. So is every weight 100% full?

It's not that anyone is trying to eliminate the smaller weights, they are only suggesting widing the opportunities for the bigger boys. And yes we all know of kids who drop out because someone on the team is a little better and they don't want to wrestle JV their Junior or Senior years (This happens at ALL weights)and I applaud the ones who remain on the team to support others. I ask you is that fair. And by aswering yes, do you agree that all High School Sports should be limited to only the top person at any given position: Football only the starting 22 positions be able to compete, Basketball only the top 5, and in track you can only let your #1 person be the one that is eligible to compete at a Track Meet? I know thats far fetched, but this is how a kid who has the talent to be a State Placer must feel if he happens to be on the same team as two #1 placers and his inability to stay small is being punished because of the larger seperation at the bigger weights.

Going into Regionals / State it sounds good to open the door for 2 kids at the same weight allowing those kids who might place 2nd at State but is on the same team as the #1 kid.

rjohnson,

I don't think 24/7 is against adding an additional weight class in the heavier weights. His point is (and I agree) is do not do it at the expense of either eliminating a lower weight or raising the minimum weight above 103 lbs. My interpretation of what he was saying is that some who were making the argument for a heavier weight class were using data, positions, etc that apply just the same as the lowest weight classes.

I personally get nervous, touchy and sometimes downright right mad when I hear of raising the smallest weights. That comes from my own personal bias because I was very small in high school. I was fortunate that we had a 98 lbs class (only weighed 89 lbs as a freshman). If you look at most of the sports offered in high school they favor, promote, etc kids that are big or at least average in size. Wrestling is one of the few sports that allows those of us on the below average size scale to particpate and try to earn college scholarships. I know that is why I get a little more emotional about this type of subject.

I would love to see us implement a system like MT does for its largest schools. IMO it is the best compromise that gives the most kids an opportunity and that is what this is all about.

Shawn Budke

Vince : I dont have a problem with the thought of a weight between 215 and 285. (235 or 240) My problem is the disrespect that you have in the past directed at the smaller wrestlers, and that you continously suggest getting rid of their weight bracket all together. (At least now you are suggesting an increase in the lowest weight instead of completely removing it.)
My other issue with your posts is you constantly use both football and upperclassman as your guage.
This is NOT FOOTBALL. Wrestling is unique in its structure and I oppose trying to mold it to the mindset of the football attitude. (re: Bigger is better, sit on the bench until you're an upperclassman, etc..) Thats a crock, IMO.
I would propose to you to research the success that our smaller wrestlers have had OUTSIDE of your comfort zone in Kansas and outside of the Kansas wrestling season. If you are in favor of Kansas continuing to get recognized for their quality of wrestling I would strongly suggest you rethink your size and age platform. Just think how far back you would put Kansas if you were to deter kids like Slyter, Furches, Vesta, Ruiz, Ornelas, Stroot, Windham, Penka, Moeder - and this years freshmen like Pursel, Locke, Seybold, Kriss from going out initially because they were too small to even have a chance to try out and no hope of making the team! The national tournaments like Cadet and Junior duals start with smaller weights than our High School division does. There is a purpose for that and if you step back and think that out you would understand there is a reason for it.
I'll give you another reason that it is imperative to have the smaller wrestler alive and well in Kansas. There will be a higher percentage of them dedicate themselves to wrestling, and if they are good enough, they will continue on to another level. They are not going to use wrestling as a "side-sport" during the football offseason. They are going to continue working their wrestling skills year round. We have had some of our quality "big guys" sign wrestling letters recently and that excites me. I will say however, I think they are the exception and not the rule. The greatest percentage of Kansas wrestlers that will move on to the College arena will have started in the smaller ranks.

in m oppinion the top small freshmans should be...

Bo Pursel-103
Chase locke-103
Colby watters-112
U. Deshazer-112 or 119?
Brady Heincker-103 or 112?
Hunter Stalford-103
Aaron Seybold-103
Timmy Prescott-112
Zack Vesta- 103


these are just my guesses..

any one care too differ?

Tim:

I really wish I had not opened this can of worms. The post that mentioned that a young high quality wrestler might decide not to wrestle next year due to his not wanting to cut weight to 189 and the roadblocks on his team with state champions at 215 and 285 prompted me to take this topic off target. I have seen this young man wrestle and he is way too good of a wrestler to be not wrestling varsity next year. It brought back some similar bad memories from my son's high school team two years ago. I intended to get off of this topic completely and I will, but now I feel you just made a completely unfair and untrue statement about me with that post with this quote:



Please direct me to the all of these posts where I am continously suggesting to get rid of the 103 weight bracket and not just adjust it upward slightly. I am not sure that I have ever suggested anything other than moving it up at the most 5 pounds. I have made a lot of posts in my time on the forum so you should easily be able to get on to my profile to view my posts and find them if I have continously been suggesting that we drop 103 completely and start at 112. I may have done so but I don't think so. I can direct you to a post I made over a year ago where I suggested that 103 be just adjusted slightly upward to either 106 or 108. My main thought especially over the last year has been that if the only way to get more opportunities for heavier wrestlers was to keep the weight classes limited to 14 that the best way to achieve it would be to adjust more the middle weights by increasing all the five pound weight differentials upward a little. My suggestion on a little upward move on 103 to 106 or 108 has more to do with concern that some coaches might feel too much pressure to encourage young athletes to drop too much weight to get to 103. Yes, you were correct in an earlier post on this topic that freshmen and other ages are growing at other weights too but statisically the freshmen are not required to fill the higher weights at the varsity level as much as they are at 103 so not as many freshmen get pressure to lose weight as they do in varsity 103.

If I have shown such disrespect for 103 wrestlers I apologize to them and you as a parent. I think a lot of the 103 wrestlers are some of the best wrestlers in Kansas. The list you gave of last year's state placers is a good example of that as are the other past 103 wrestlers that you mentioned in your last post. I really do believe that all those wrestlers would have also been great at a 106 or 108 weight class. I love it that wrestling gives more opportunity for lighter athletes than a sport like football. I have always encouraged my son to wrestle instead of playing my high school sport football. Since the first grade he has wrestled 11 years and only played football three years. He is not playing football this year as a senior and is totally concentrating on wrestling. I have been an advocate though of more opportunities in wrestling for the athletes over 160 pounds. I believe it would be good for wrestling if there were more opportunities for these heavier athletes.

we don't need to adjust the weight classes especially the lighter weights because wrestling is about the only sport the smaller kids can compete at. They are too small for football and basketball. As for the kid that can't make varsity, sorry thats life, maybe he needs to work harder and improve his wrestling skills to compete against the other two kids. kids over 160lbs have ample opportunities to compete at the high school level. Most of the heavier weights are hard to fill anyway. My son is a 165lb sophmore and if he doesn't make varsity I will tell him to work harder to get there. It just seems that husker fan is an advocate for only the bigger kids.

tbau, I don't know you but I value your opinion of me. I feel that is another completely unfair statement to make that I am just an advocate for bigger kids. I have given my time and resources to wrestling causes that benefit all weight classes and I truly admire wrestlers in all the weight classes. I will continue to do so because I believe in this sport and the opportunities it gives to kids of all sizes. I just want to see a little more opportunity for heavier athletes both in high school and college wrestling. I would like to see more opportunities for wrestlers of all sizes that is why I have given of my time and resources to try and promote more college wrestling programs. I do this and intend to continue to do so and yet there are very few weight classes for heavier wrestlers in college. It goes from 197 to 285. I don't understand why I have to get personal attacks directed on me just because I am a strong advocate for heavier wrestlers.

Also you have seemed to have changed your stance rather suddenly with this new just tough it up and beat out these two state champions in your weight class opinion from this quote that you just made in June of this year in another topic:



Seriously do you really think it is a good situation that you may have a wrestler who could wrestle at just about any other school in Wichita at 215 or 285 and seriously compete for a state placing position but might be preventing from wrestling varsity at his own school because the defending state champions at 215 and 285 are at his school?

At least don't you think that a change to the Montana system of allowing each school to take two squads to the State qualifying series might be a good alternative to address such a situation? I think that could help wrestlers at all weight classes not just heavier weight classes.

The Montana system would be fine and even adding another weight class between 215 and 285 would be okay. You are the one advocating eliminating the 103lb class or increasiny the weight. It's too bad this kid can't make varsity at his school but should the state make a special weight class to accomidate him? Is it a good situation? No but it happens just like I'm sure their have been 2 103 pounders at the same school who could of been state placers over the years. Yes you do seem to only advocate increased oppurtunities for the bigger kids.

Vince,

Not all kids can be on varsity, the best person at the weight is on the team. Should we start asking for 12 man football teams because there are more than eleven good kids? High school is, for most teens, the last formal education they will receive before going off into the real world. If a young man goes to IBM to interview for a job but misses the cut would you tell them that they need to have more jobs for qualified employees? Disappointment is part of life. Just like Tom said they have to learn to work harder or prepare differently. Not getting what you want gives you experience. We are not adequately preparing our youth by making it easier to get something that should be a reward. In the past 40 years we have gone to four state tournaments, given out more awards (from four to six), invited 16 wrestlers to state instead of 8, and now you think we should have two varsity teams when many teams can't fill one? There are lots of athletic opportunities for the bigger kids. Lots more than there are for the small guys. I am confident the weight classes and population distribution have been closely tied to the percentage differences and weight class set up. To me these changes would be SUPER difficult to gain approval. Lets figure out how to fill all of the weights we have now. Fill all of our JV and Freshmen teams too.

In closing, it is OKAY that a good/great wrestler may not make varsity. He will learn and grow from his diappointment and experience.

I agree with your stance to advocate more weight classes but I think the majority reading and posting feel that there are bigger problems that need to be addressed before we get to that.

Will,

I am going to respond to you in a private message. I have to take myself off this topic and posting on topics for now.

Interesting post. As an aside, not only will Wichita Northwest likely be without the services of Trey Page, who, I assume (and this is totally an "assumption, on my part and I truly hope that I'm wrong) "can not" as opposed to "will not", make weight to compete at 189 lbs, but Northwest will (as I understand it) also, not have the pleasure of having Jeff Poe (another outstanding wrestler - and equally great kid - and, I should mention, another previously "ranked" 6-A Wreslter) on their wrestling squad, as he, as well, has increased his weight to in excess of 189 lbs. That's the way it goes. As I see it, Will's right. Each team Presents competes with their best at a given weight and the chips fall where they may. It's just unfortunate that the chips fell that way for Wichita Northwest this year. I labor under no delusion that many other teams have experienced similar problems, throughout the years.

No decision has been made about Trey and his weight. We are going to get through football and see what happens. Thank you to those of you that think Trey is a quality wrestler. He loves the sport, but we will have to wait and see what happens after football.

Maize | Derby

103 Locke vs Windham
112 Zinabu vs Heinicker
119 Amaro vs Reinhart?
125 Beasley vs McCombs?
130 Cox? vs Shavlik?

correct me if im wrong

Shavlik WILL NOT make 130. He likes Honey Buns way too much! JMO

Let's determine the number of weight classes each year based on who we think is getting hosed. If a good kid can't make varsity, let's create a weight class for him until: 1-he graduates, or 2-he can make varsity. We don't want any kids becoming discouraged by these bumps in the road that life provides. Let's level all the bumps out for them.

Doug

New2Wrestling:

I sure hope that you are right. I'd love to see Trey out there again. At 189 lbs ... he'd be a force to reckon with!

ha, nice one.
do you think he can make 135?
and who will be at 135?