We have a wrestler in the novice ranks that has really learned to use that move very well. In each of the last 4 tournaments we have had him in, he has taken 1st place and never had a ref say a word to him or any of the coaching staff about it being an illegal move.

Today, in his first match, he pinned the kid using the chin-under hook. At the end of the match, the ref took the child aside and explained that he could have called the move illegal and not to do it again! He said it would have been a caution.

My question is this..... How do you teach your students or wrestlers to preform the Chin-Underhook? Do you teach them to sink the head tight and cup the chin, then snake the arm and apply leverage to the snaked arm to turn the opponent onto his back? OR do you teach all of the above except dont have them cup the chin, instead have an open hand with the thumb upwards under the chin?

Please let me know your thoughts on this. As it turns out, the ref NEVER cautioned ANY other wrestler and it is used at least 10 times on his mat that I saw today. I tried to find any ruling in the Oklahoma rule book, but all it would talk about is wrenching of the neck or back of the neck and if you DO grab the chin, it must be followed immediatly by a turning motion to move the player to his back.

Thanks much.

I think that as long as the wrestler is not cranking, or pulling on the chin, it is a legal move. You may want to ask another ref on that ruling, but if he is just cupping the chin, I think it is legal.

I agree, get with an official and ask while demonstrating the move. IMO if the move was illegal in the officials judgment he should have stopped it in the match. I find issues like going to a kid after a match more like a coaching situation, maybe say something to the coach, but never to the kid, especially a novice kid. It is the officials job to officiate the match, not coach the kid as to legal vs. illegal moves. I know some of my officiating buddies may get upset about my view on this, but I feel pretty strongly on it.

I agree with the caution if the move is not done in conjunction with a move to the back, that would be choking. The big problem I had with this call, is that the ref had numerous matches that day where kids hit that move and he NEVER called it and I saw some chins being pulled so hard the kids were freaking out to get it off. So consistancy on the refs part should have been better I guess.

When the ref stopped the move in the finals match, the ref basicly got in the wrestlers head and said he was watching for that move. The kids he wrestled was giving him the head every shot, but him thinking he was going to get a point deducted he didnt take it the remainder of the match and ended up losing.

Mike, I agree with you 100%, talk to the coach, not the kid.

Oh, I did call the head ref over to confer, he agreed with me on the placement and not to wrench the head. The only issue is that according to the rule, it is olny illegal if you wrench the neck or head and not trying to preform an additional move immediatly upon grabbing the chin.

I guess its all intereprating how its read. Geeze, what a way to blow a kids confidence out the water for a day.

First of all the Ref did not go out of his way to blow the kids confidence out of the water for a day. Second why are you teaching a novice kid this type of move? This move is for older kids, or novice who need immediate success that will not last. I have always been an opponent of teaching novice headlocks, snakes, and neck wrenches. They do not learn the basics: Doubles, Singles, Halves, Bar Arms, and proper riding techiques. Everybody complains about kids not getting enough mat time, but these moves cut down on mat time. There are alot of first period falls where two kids go out and MUSCLE to see who gets caught in one of these moves first. TEACH your kids to wrestle and then show them these moves. There is a time and place for these moves, but not for NOVICE and YOUNG wrestlers. It will ruin them.

Now to be helpful...have the wrestler make a fist under the chin and you don't have to worry about this rule.

i somewhat agree with you beeson. the teach 'em to win first and to wrestle second, coaching technique usually only lasts until jr. high. the thing is these moves are so simple and require such little skill, most kids will learn them on their own. on the other hand, when do you step in and start showing kids quick ways to win, so their confidence level does not drop? secondly where do you draw the line on "novice"? we were at a novice tourney today in MO, we shook hands got blasted, picked up, halfed on the way back to the mat, and pinned. i laughed and said "that doesn't look novice to me", then his coach said "can you believe that he has never won a single match at an open tourney?" i feel that novice is for kids with less than two years experience, and less than 25% winning percentage. it is for "MAT TIME", like you said. i would like to hear some thoughts from other coaches on this, there were kids there who placed 2nd the day before at the open. what's a good solution?

I agree the ref did not do this on purpose, I dont think anyone would do that, the point is that by him going to the wrestler directly, made the wrestler feel as if he did something wrong. As a judgement call, the ref can stop the match and caution, that is all he should have done if it was applied wrong, then talked to the coach.

As for the CUH being a move for Open kids only, if a kid is skilled enough to learn the basics and apply them, then they can also learn the more advanced moves. I dont concider a CUH an advanced move myself. It is an easy ay to pin a kid that leads with his head. I am sure there are others that feel the way you do, I agree to disagree on that point.

So my question is basic, do you teach to cup the chin? or make a fist? 9/10 coaches I have talked to about this, they all teach to cup the chin. I just wondered if anyone else has had an issue with this move.

Thx for the input, I will see about having them use the fist and see how that works.

At the novice level I think it is acceptable for the ref to explain what a wrestler did wrong. Examples: Locked hands,the ref explains and shows the wrestler before he restarts the match. Starting position, the ref may adjust a foot, knee or hand postion. Open is a different beast. Tell the coach and let him make the adjustment.

Suckerpunch, you are always going to have medal hunters who place in open, but need to feel like a champion by going to novice for the easier competition.

I am in my third year of being into the wrestling community and I have 2 6 and under and a 8 and under and at the Russell tournament my daughter got two tech violations for locking hands and gave a point for each to opponent. The ref stopped match and awarded points and explained to her that she can not do that.Also she wrenched arm aross back but went up not straight across and the ref stopped match and did not award point on that one but explained that she has to go across not up I thought that was very fair..I believe we are all active in wrestling for the same purpose to keep the sport alive and teach the kids who participate to have fun but follow rules and be safe..Sometimes coaches get busy and have alot of kids at practice that a move the younger or novice kids do at a tournament and get tech'd on is a move they werent taught not to do cause to not confuse them the coaches teach them moves they can do..I feel that whether its a coach or ref that corrects the wrestler and demonstrates the right way is teaching the youth and doing their part to help..its for the love of the sport and the happiness of the kids..I also agree with teaching the basics before more complex moves its just like everything else in life you have to know the basics first you cant drive a car unless you know what is the brake and gas pedal..also I feel that novice tournaments should be left for the "jr varsity" wrestlers.So everyone can have a fair chance..we all want to see kids excel in this sport and have fun but if the only chance a wrestler has of getting a medal or a fair match is to go to novice tournaments its only right we keep it fair..

It all comes down to whether the neck is "wrenched" or not AND that is what the official judges.

No matter what, it's either legal (and allowed to continue), stopped for potentially dangerous and restarted, or stopped and penalized for an illegal move and restarted, but there's no cuation for it!! the only caution in wrestling it for false starts.

My suggestion would be what Furches suggested. Get with a VETERAN official and show the move and ask for their opinion. Keep in mind, what one ref may deem legal, another may not with something that is so "touchy" though...

there is nothing wrong about coaching a kid to use the chin as long as it is understood and tought that the chin must stay parralell to the long axis of the body . however it can become potentially dangerous more times than not by the motion of the the other wrestler.

most of the time when there is trouble with the chin the defensive wrestler will reach behind and grab the chin and try to pull thhe other wrestler accross his back,then it becomes ilegal.A good official will know when to stop it and when it is illegal or potentially dangerous