Which would you rather see in Kansas?

Dual State vs. Grand State single choice
	Dual State
	Grand State
Votes accepted starting: 02/03/09 09:52 PM
View Results

Thanks for the interesting poll question. I had to side with Dual State, since it gives a reason for the whole team to continue training and practicing. It was not an easy decision, but one I feel would benefit the team the most.

What would the criteria be to qualify as a team for the Dual State?

Here is the proposal that was sent into KSHSAA several years ago:

DUAL STATE WRESTLING TOURNAMENT

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QUALIFYING PROCESS:
top 4 teams in each Regional tournament qualify for a 16-team Dual State for each class
in case two teams are tied for fourth place, the following criteria will be used: 1) most Regional top six placers; 2) most top four placers; 3) most top two placers; 4) most champions; 5) most wins in Regional tournament (not including byes); 6) highest win pct. in Regional tournament; 7) most wins head-to-head (between two teams in question); 8) coin toss
CALENDAR SCHEDULE:
one-day tournament, four mats for each class
the Regional and Individual State tournaments will be moved up one week, with the Dual State tournament held the weekend which is currently the Individual State weekend
teams still allowed 30 scheduling points
BRACKET ARRANGEMENT:
16 teams in bracket, single elimination, semi-final losers wrestle for third place
Round 1 @ 10:30 a.m. - four mats
Round 1 (cont.) @ 12:30 p.m. - four mats
Quarterfinals @ 2:30 p.m. - four mats
Semi-finals @ 4:30 p.m. - two mats
First/Third place @ 6:30 p.m. - two mats
Brackets will be set using the same formula used to set the Ind. State brackets (First A vs. Fourth B, Second C vs. Third D, etc.)
MISCELLANEOUS:
teams may weigh-in any 18 wrestlers and adjust their lineups throughout the day as per National Federation rules
top three teams receive trophies and medals for each team member
NOTES:
this event is fan and media "friendly" as it is easy to follow
this event gives a wrestler a chance to compete in a state-level event even if he may not have been able to qualify for Ind. State....more opportunities and recognition for kids!!
a great promotional event for our sport and its top teams
rewards the programs with balance strength throughout the lineup
20 of 48 states that sponsor wrestling have a Dual State tourney....Doug Moore (Concordia wrestling coach) contacted these states and all who responded had very positive comments about their Dual State events
only twice in the history of the Iowa Dual State has the same team won both the Individual State and Dual State team title
The plan is to run the event for two years in this format, then revisit it and make any necessary adjustments

Thanks for the update. I initially voted for Grand State. After further review, I am now undecided. As a wrestling fan, I would be excited to see either one take place.

Didn't Kansas used to have Grand state? I also voted for Grand State however after reading the post the dual sounds exciting!

I love the poll!!!
I picked Dual State for a few reasons.
#1 It gives a lot of kids that contribute to the team week in and week out but they might be in a very stacked weight class and this will give them a chance to shine.
#2 I also tend to think that winning a dual state will help coaches get a little more recognition. They deserve more!

JMO

i think that if we are going to do it, we would have to push for both. if only picking 1, i put grand state. although the dual tournament would be exciting in the finals i don't think that there would be that many close dual scores. let's face it, our sport keeps dwindling and many top tournament teams don't have all weights filled.they may have quality wrestlers to finish 3rd of 4th in a regional with only 4 wrestlers. in a grand state tournament every match would be like a semifinals match, the biggest problem would be stiff necks trying to catch all the action. just look on the other thread, the same 3 or 4 names come up on top dual teams, i think the distance between 1st and 3rd would be huge. jmo. both would be great for the sport, but i think grand state would be better. let's quit talking about it and do it!!

Both sounds good for the sport, however I would be one to lean towards Grand State to allow those guy's that may desire to take their wrestling to the college level another chance to show of their skills one more time. This also would catch the attention I feel of College coaches more than the format we currently have. I do not see this ever happening if KSHSAA is involved or they would be hammered from all other sports to do the same.

It would be nice if this year we could put together some type of tournament with in a couple of weeks after High School State inviting the top 4 placers out of each class. Would this be something USA Wrestling would consider putting on?

RJohnson

They did it in past years "unofficially" as you are talking about and the problem is if it's not part of the HS schedule, they can't work with coaches, alot of kids take a break and it was not completely supported by all 4 kids in each class. It was done like this in the early 80's. Maybe kids have changed now and all would come. I don't know. I like the idea however.

24/7

The first step to getting dual state will be giving up trophies for teams at individual state. KSHSAA will never agree to presenting two teams a state championship trophy.

In Wisconsin they only invite thet top eight teams to dual state, which I feel would be adequate for Kansas as well. The top two from each regional.

We need this to be implemented at the same time they overhaul the competition points system to bring back the mid-week dual. There should be a half dozen competition points that are allowed only for Mon - Thur night, one-on-one duals. These are great for parents, crowds and schools. The current system discourages the use of points for these because you don't get as much match time for your points. Come on coaches, get behind this and you will have something you can promote wrestling with and get more kids out. They want to wrestle in front of a home crowd!!

Ricky Robby. Who are you ? Give me a call 1-785-587-2150 ex. 101
The plan you shared looks almost exactly like the original one that several of us drew up in 1995 or 1996 ??. Several of us met at neosho county college with Terry Pack/Richard Fergola/Kit Harris/Randy Hinderliter/Doug Vanderlinden were present. (I have to dig out a file) But I am sure about that time Richard and Kit were on the USAW FS-GR staff and we were having a team camp at Chanute. We met and discussed the plan and I took the plan to KSHSAA for the next four-five years trying to get passed. Now keep in mind this was NOT first or the original plan. Doug Moore had a plan back in late 89-90 or 90-91 to adopt Dual State. Coach Moore spent a lot of time contacting other state associations and gathering data on this proposal. For a number of us coaches wanted Grand State wrestling back and that issue was like beating a dead horse. (KSHSAA) before Rick Bowden simply did not like the Grand State Concept. Coach Moore said lets try this dual state idea. All of the ideas posted here are excellent and have value for the wrestling community. I have been on the KWCA board since 1980 and we have tried to get change. Keep sending the ideas to the forum. Old guys like me, we have not given up. I am currently on the 6A coaches to get their possible rule recommendations to me via their Regional Tournament Director. Personally I would like to see Grand State it was the greatest wrestling in our state. I was in college and working at KAYS-TV and had the opportunity to watch many great bouts in Gross Colesium. Keep your ideas coming. RMG

I voted for the dual state. I like the idea of the team concept. The wrestling community at large struggles with popularity and trying to grow the sport on a national level (ie, wrestling on TV, etc). The team aspect of the dual makes it more fan friendly and it is very exciting.

I like the idea of a grand state also but if it is one or the other I like the dual idea better. I think the kids have ample opportunity at other venues for individual competitions.

Just my 2 cents.

Shawn Budke

They just did this for the first time in Montana for their 6A equivalent schools. Now there is only 14 or 15 schools (I may be off one or two) but they used a pool format. Not sure that would work in KS. The one that was posted seemed ok to me.

Shawn Budke

I agree with you, Shawn Budke and the others who have posted with a pick of the dual format over the grand state format. I also think it would be great to have both but I would vote for dual state over grand state if the choice was one or the other. I agree with Will that we need to try to encourage more dual competitions during the season too.

Coach I believe that is a plan quoted maybe from a post by Coach Alley or someone.
I am of the belief that the Grand State would be easier to get passed now for one reason and that is money. I think that the Grand State would be a bigger draw at the gate and thus a bigger money maker for KSHSAA. While I would like to see either or both, I believe selling KSHSAA on the financials is the way to go.

Do you think it would need to be centrally located as much as possible, this would make the chances of more wanting to attend? With out wrestlers wanting to be part of this it will never work. Who all that feels that they have a good chance at Placing this year at State would make a commitment to be part of this? Is there any facilities in mind? Coaches and Refs willing to commit? If its not through the KSHSAA than could a kid use another coach, theres allot of good coaches not coaching High School. How many would be willing to chip in funds, or time to help make this work? Whos got the list started? We could make this event the Shrine Bowl of wrestling in the years to come. Anyhow this is only my opinion, and this is only from the veiw of a Grand State.

Ronnie Johnson

I think the Dual State would attract a bigger audience.

you are right will, we need more dual matches for our kids. at pittsburg high they only have 2 home duals, very difficult to spark much "outside" interest when fans can't see it. i also agree that the top 2 teams from each regional would be enough, i just don't think it's competitive after that. it would certainly have to be centrally located to draw a fan base outside of parents and teammates. the shrine bowl idea is a great one, we should talk to some shrine members and see if they would be willing to use this as another fundraiser.

It’s me, Ricky Bobby. I found the plan at the bottom of the high school link on the usawks website. Overall it is a pretty good plan I think they should just add another week to the season so we can get more mat time for everyone. We are falling behind other states like Pennsylvania and Ohio who have their state tournaments in March when it comes time to Senior Nationals. Basketball ends two weeks after we do there’s no reason we can’t have another week on our schedule for an extra post season tournament. Football postseason last four weeks, there’s no reason we can’t ask for three weeks. Duals just seem to be easier for fans to catch onto the scoring of rather than a tournament where theoretically a team could win the championship with 14 third place finishers who pin in all of the matches except for the one they lost while another team has 14 first place finishers who each win by decision and places second. In this case who’s the better team? I know that if these two teams were allowed to meet up in a dual state format we would know.