Look at the 4A 171# bracket for a very unfortunate outcome. A wrestler (I won't name him, but you can see for yourself) came to the Regional tournament with one loss and thirty five wins. He lost on the front side to the eventual champion for his second loss of the year. On the backside he lost his third match of the year and missed qualifying for state.

In the 5A Bishop Miege Regional several wrestlers qualified for state without winning a single match, possibly all year. We don't have a very even playing field for these kids. I'm not offering a solution, just illustrating a frequent observation.

Lenny Mullin

Happened in 6A 215 ranked wresler lost then lost in wrestle backs.

5A and 6A should have two 16 team regionals and an 8 man state bracket. 25% of kids qualifying for state makes way more sense than 50%. Actually more than 50% because most of the brackets have at least one bye in the regional. 4A only has 25% so why do they have more in 5A and 6A????

Will,

I don't completely disagree with you on this one. However, the bigger the school the greater the possibility that you run into the situation that you actually have two of the top wrestlers in the state in the same weight class especially in the heavier weight classes where the weight differentials are so much larger than the lighter weight classes. I know it is an exceptional case but it happened this year in the Wichita Northwest situation where you had two previous year state champions, Caylor 215 and Heithaus 285 returning and no place for Trey Page who is one of the top heavier wrestlers all class in the state and would certainly have been a favorite to place high at either 215 or 285. All three of these wrestlers in my opinion should have had the opportunity to compete for the state championship this year even if they are from the same school. To accomplish this Kansas should consider the Montana sytem that Shawn Budke posted about last year.

quote=shawnbudke].....Here's an idea of how they do it in Montana for the big schools....

Each high school can enter up to 2 full teams into the state qualifying tournaments. There are 2 divisional qualifying tournaments. The top 8 from each weight class qualifies for state the following week. At the state tournament the team points count just the same for every wrestler that qualifies.

At first, I didn't like this but having coached in that system for a few years I realized there were a lot of advantages to it. Here are the advantages from my perspective...

1. The true team champion is determined by who has the best overall program. The best programs end up qualifying 20-25 kids and thus usually score a lot more points at the state tournament.
As a coach, it requires you to build depth in your wrestling room.

2. It is a great advantage for the kids. If you have 2 studs at a weight you don't have to force one to wrestle up or down a weight. There has been times when one school has had 2 wrestlers in the championship. This is a good thing for the kids because the get to become state placers without having to cut weight just to try and fit into the line up or not get a chance because they can't make the weight.

3. This proces also promotes the total team concept among the wrestlers. Kids get more interested in helping their "back ups" vice just trying to make varsity.

4. It actually increases participation and the number of kids in the wrestling room. For example, if you have a group of state qualifiers or really good wrestlers, kids that aren't that good still come out for wrestling because they know they still have a chance.

I think these are very positive for a sport that has trouble increasing its number of participants in high school and college.

BLUF: We need to look at ways to increase the participation in the sport of wrestling, not limit opportunities.

Shawn Budke

[/quote]

While reading through your list of changes that you have proposed( all of which are sorely needed) and thinking about a subject that is talked about alot this time of year which is regoinal desparity I have an Idea I want to throw our there.
why not go ahead and wrestle for 5 and 6 at regionals then take all the 4s and 5s and wrestle them off thursday night before state using the random draw we use now. This would kind of be like pigtail matches no team points awarded. this would help even out the regionals and since most teams travel to state on thursday anyway you could start the matches at 7 or so and be done in good time.
Just an idea
Adam Polansky

I just posted this on a nother forum

Ref How Montana Does it

A big State, beautiful, not many people, no big towns. Billings maybe 100k. Missoula 60K. 14 AA big schools ranging from 1090 to 1996 students. 24 A schools ranging from 123 to 830 students. Class B about 44 schools ranging 93 to 352 schools. A bunch of C schools ranging 11 to 93 students. Don't know why there is so much overlap of enrollment number between A and B and B and C. In comparison Kansas has 32 6A, 32 5A, 64 4A and a pot full of 3-2-1-A. Montana has a systemthat fits there needs. not sure how it would work for kansas. Probably just need to tweak what we have..

Since its a man vs. man sport - why are classifications needed at all?

I remember when a little freshman from Sabetha (Matt Pyle) tossed a senior from another 6a town around like a rag-doll before Pyle PINNED him. This senior was good. This senior was a HARD WORKER. I had known this senior since he was a little kid. He finished well. He took third in 6a state that year. Pyle went on to be a state champ as a freshman.

I see no need for classifications other than geography. But, with some creative thinking, I bet that could be overcome.

Here is an idea that may have been mentioned and after talking with several parents yesterday sounds like a good one. 2 regionals, 16 man brackets, top 8 advance. Wow we might never have to worry about the same old crap of blind draw and the number 1,2,3 on same side of the bracket. I know we beat the dead horse with ths every year but apparently the dead horse has been beaten so bad that he cant think about whats best for our best wrestlers. Now, if we cant awaken the dead horse and get him to implement whats best for our wrestlers in the long term, then maybe the dead horse should be replaced with a fresh one.


Mel

Will,

Sorry, I didnt see your previous post. there are alot of whom agree with it, then there are some that are afraid of it. I vote to implement 2 regionals.

Mel

When I started reading this post it did not take long to know who the boy is that your talking about and his dad and I have been freinds for years and his son and my grandson have wrestled since they were 8 or 9 and have had a lot of great matches and both have beat each other over the years and were both in the 171 lb bracket where the four seated wrestlers had a combinded record going in of 134 wins and 10 losses. It was a heart breaker to see this great young man not make state but just a few people new that he was hurt. I have watched this wrestler work very hard trying to make a run at the state finals and I hope that people understand that wrestling is a very hard sport and I look forward to seeing him in collage wrestling.
I mabe should not use his name but I know his dad would like people to know who he is and the people of Holton should be very unnderstanding of what happened and what he has done for the sport of wrestling in the big seven. this young man is Cole Geisen.

couldn't agree more on this one

There are lots of unfortunate outcomes -

I hate it when a good kid gets beat at the consolation semi's.

Trent Hoover at 135 from SS won't make it to state this year. Great kid- but he lives in an area where there were 5 good kids at that weight. He would have made the top four at Liberal, Emporia, and Bishop M.

He would have made the top four at the Spring Hill Region in 4A. Is that fair?

No matter how you figure the regions or classes - there will always be individuals who get upset on the front side- are injured or whatever and then get beat out and don't qualify for state.

It is life-

Upsets are part of wrestling...

here's a novel idea, win your matches and you will go to state. no matter what happens, the other regional will always be easier, the other side of the bracket was easier, the other kid got a better seed, blah blah blah. win and you're in.

all in all it is still a learning experience but there is always the "what if". it really isn't too pleasant when one of them "what ifs" was the end of the season or career.

I say let all the wrestlers freshmen - Senior wrestle in a sub regional then proceed to regionals and even a district if need to accommendate the situation-

I know there are tough regionals and such but it would be hard to get around that- 16 man brackets in 2 sub states would mean more traveling and more expense

how does a record of 3-10 make it to a state tournament. that would be like letting the chiefs make the playoffs.

Happens every year, someone who probably doesn't belong makes it and someone who does belong stays home. Bottom line is only four from each regional can go. It's pretty simple place in the top 4 you go... My son went into regionals with a record of 35-4, he went 3-2 at regionals and is staying home. Can't blame anyone else he had the same opportunity as the four that made it.

no that is a fault in the system is what it is. not saying i can fix it but come on just look at it. heck lets just let all the kids enter state then.

Lets just go find a few corn fields. Let the kids wrestle and last kids standing goes to state!! Current system is fair and objective!!