In another post (Unfortunate Outcome) Cokely opened a possible discussion on combining 5A and 6A for state level wrestling. This may have some merit and needs extensive comment from all affed schools (administrators, coaches, wrestlers, parents, fans).

My local HS team was a 4A until a few years ago. The 4A regionals my son wrestled in were all scrambles, all weight classes, and the best, most active matches were usually late in the wrestle backs. State wide only 1 out of 4 4A wrestlers make it to State. Attended the Spring Hill Regional Friday and it was true to form with 16 schools and pretty good wrestling.

Saturday I attended a KC area 5A regional (a few years ago I attended a few 6A regionals). Not much comparison then or now to a 4A regional. It may be time to look at leveling the playing field between classifications. Two (2) 16 team 5A/6A regionals might work----not so sure about Cokley's 8 wrestlers per weight bracket at State---however, it might be the solution. Have to think about it

Big subject needs some good comment!! YAYs and NAYs!!

The Montana system as described by Shawn Budke is the best to help avoid the situation that developed at Wichita Northwest this year in 215 and 285 with them having 3 of the top all class heavier 215 & 285 wrestlers in the state in Caylor, Heithaus and Page.

quote=shawnbudke]Here's an idea of how they do it in Montana for the big schools....

Each high school can enter up to 2 full teams into the state qualifying tournaments. There are 2 divisional qualifying tournaments. The top 8 from each weight class qualifies for state the following week. At the state tournament the team points count just the same for every wrestler that qualifies.

At first, I didn't like this but having coached in that system for a few years I realized there were a lot of advantages to it. Here are the advantages from my perspective...

1. The true team champion is determined by who has the best overall program. The best programs end up qualifying 20-25 kids and thus usually score a lot more points at the state tournament.
As a coach, it requires you to build depth in your wrestling room.

2. It is a great advantage for the kids. If you have 2 studs at a weight you don't have to force one to wrestle up or down a weight. There has been times when one school has had 2 wrestlers in the championship. This is a good thing for the kids because the get to become state placers without having to cut weight just to try and fit into the line up or not get a chance because they can't make the weight.

3. This proces also promotes the total team concept among the wrestlers. Kids get more interested in helping their "back ups" vice just trying to make varsity.

4. It actually increases participation and the number of kids in the wrestling room. For example, if you have a group of state qualifiers or really good wrestlers, kids that aren't that good still come out for wrestling because they know they still have a chance.

I think these are very positive for a sport that has trouble increasing its number of participants in high school and college.

BLUF: We need to look at ways to increase the participation in the sport of wrestling, not limit opportunities.

Shawn Budke


[/quote]

Hard topic - No matter what change is made if any, there will be instances where the new method needs to be modified and changed to better fit someones needs and others who fall short of State. With budget cuts and school consolidation now facing many areas of the state the overall economy will be helping make some of these changes more of a reality sooner than we may think. With so many smaller schools within a small radius of each other in some areas it will be cheaper and more feasible for the state to highly consider the option of maintaining one building instead of half a dozen within a certain square mile range.

Someone mentioned earlier about the 5A/6A having byes in their brackets as a reason for combining them into one. Looking at most of the 16 team regionals in 4A - 321A they themselves are loaded with byes. Yes some with very few but others with allot.

So the question is, is wrestling a sport that all throughout the year we have teams from all classes competing against each other, 321A kids pinnig 6A kids, teams showing up for duals with less than half a team, there are so many more versions and we all have seen them through our years of watching HS wrestling. Is this a sport that our wants and needs would be better meet with one State Champion by dropping the barriers of classes. Deviding the state into districts, regions. Eliminating the senseless league tournemants, and instead have a District Tournament, than a regional tournament, and if needed a sub-state, than finally State. This would solve the age old question-"would the real state champion please stand up", giving us our Grand State, eliminating loosing records going to state, no one could ever say that you didn't earn your way to state, and an tournament that colleges would definitely come see.

Anyhow we all have our own versions of what would work and what will not, and the fact what slows progress and change is upper administration who has the final vote, because with change there is less need for so many of them.

RJohnson

The 5a and 6a regionals might be can be easier go get through no doubt, but to win 5a or 6a is already probably as hard or harder than any other class. Combining would not be the answer. Changing the qualifying process, or amount of regionals might be an answer.

I think a combination of a modified Montana system that I described in my previous post of this topic and redistributing the 6A, 5A and 4A classes into 48 schools each would be the best solution to increasing the regional competition in 6A, 5A and 4A.

The 16 largest 5A schools would have to go up to 6A. Then the 32 largest 4A schools would move up to 5A, and finally the 16 largest 3-2-1A schools would move up to 4A.

The part of the Montana system that allows each team to bring two wrestlers per weight class would be especially beneficial for large schools that have a lot of wrestling depth. It would allow more kids who are 2nd team on these types of teams to wrestle varsity and compete at State. I know two and three years ago Aquinas could have fielded a second team which would have been stronger than the majority of teams in the state and a lot of those 2nd team wrestlers would have qualified under this revised system even with 48 teams in the class. I know the same could be said for teams like Bishop Carroll, Goddard, and Manhattan in those years. There are teams now like Emporia and Lansing to name a couple that probably have state qualifying level second team wrestlers on their teams.

One thing though to remember about wrestlers with less than .500 records going to State is that they too have worked hard and it will be a good experience for them to compete at State that could prove to be beneficial and inspirational for them in future years. Also many of them may be relatively new to the sport but might be developing a life long interest in the sport. They could become kids club coaches, referees and possibly the parents of future state placers, champions and life long contributors to the great sport of wrestling.

Can we really stop TRYING to kill the sport!!! Why would we as wrestling faithful want to limit opportunities for our kids? Sure let’s just have one giant wrestling tournament for ALL classes and let's just place one person per weight class the champion is the only person that matters.
Then by limiting the exposure of our kids we may have fewer college wrestlers, no chance for a D1 college, only 1 kid per weight would place so fewer kids would be motivated to be a state qualifier but forget about those kids who just set their goals to be a state qualifier they aren’t real winner anyway right.
EVERYONE NEED TO LET THERE EGO GO AND NOT TRYIN TO KILL THE SPORT.
There is nothing wrong with multiple state championships; there is nothing wrong with a lil debate about who is the best. There is nothing wrong with sending the amount of kids that we do to state tournaments. There is nothing wrong with having multiple state tournaments in different areas of the state to expose our kids to fans, the excitement, the media, and college scouts.
These kids will have lasting memories of just qualifying, more kids will be motivated to continue, more kids will be exposed to a championship level, more kids will continue with the sport after they graduate will wrestle in college, coach kids or their local school, become referees, and help support and promote our sport.
OUR SPORT NEEDS THE EXPOSURE MORE THAN OTHERS!

The KC area schools are trying to kill the sport by hiring coaches who don't recruit talent out of the halls! If you can't fill your varsity roster they shouldn't pay you to coach! How hard can it be at a 5A and 6A school? There were weight classes this past weekend that had kids qualify for state that didn't even win a match! Not the wrestler's fault but the coaches who come from the left side of the curve. The ones who fight progress and don't care. The ones who just collect their check and tell the good coaches that they can't coach outside of the wrestling season. I know, FACT, that one hs in WY county has a state qualifier and he had the team roll up the mats and told the kid to find a place to practice for state! THAT COACH is trying to kill our sport. We WILL NOT get more exposure for our kids by watering down the state qualifying process. In the minds of most college coaches are present system in Kansas is already a joke. We need unity and coaches that care!

Since when do we only look at records? I have one of those kids with a sub .500 record going to state. He drew the #2 seed in the first round and gave him a big scare. After winning his next two to qualify, he got another shot in the 3rd place match and thumped him. My kid is heading to the state tournament at 17-20 but the kid who got fourth is 25-18. If people only look at records this time of year...watch out!

Good post, Travius.

Will,

I think our coaches are very dedicated and work hard for low compensation to coach our kids. They all are making positive contributions to wrestling in Kansas. I appreciate their efforts.

I do agree with you though with many of the changes that you call for. One of them that I agree with that you mentioned above is that coaches should be allowed to coach outside of the season. I definitely agree with that. I see no reason that their ability to coach kids outside of the season should be limited. I also think coaches should be allowed to work with and even organize Kids clubs and feeder middle schools to their programs if they want to. No coach should be required to do any of that but if there are coaches that want to be involved extra beyond the high school season, our system should not prohibit them from doing so.

Mr. Copkely. If you do not have kids in the KC KS schools perhaps you should not speak out. Inner city schools are not the grand palaces you see in your neighborhood at ST James Academy, Desoto, Eudora, Olathe NW, Gardner, and several other palcas out SW. Lots and lots of kids in all the KCKS schools are on reduced and free lunch programs, many are single parent famalies, there are many homeless student. Lots of students work after school and still maintain their GPA. Very few can afford to do eat, much less do kids wresling, or club soccer or club volleyball. The meal they get at school may be theonly meal they get that day.

My wife is a guidance counselor at Sumner Academy. A great school, A natioanlly recognized school of excellance. Standardized test scores right along side SM and Olathe schools. Big Advanced Placement and International Bachelorate programs (do you even know what IB is). My wife also has an Administrator's certificate and Sumner tries to send an administrator to all away activities---so we see a lot of sports all year. Now, these KS KS kids may not be as good as your suburban teams in wrestling, but in inner city sports (basketball, football, track) they will probably kick your butts. Additionally, not denying it, but I find it hard to believe that any coach rolled up the mats and told his state qualifiers to go find a place to wrestle. I have seen all KSKS wrestling coaches several times this year and I thought they were all enthusiastic and dedicated to their kids.

If something needs to be done to supposedly level the school classifications and brackets, I have no objection--in fact I agree. Might be wrong, but I think MO has different claffications for different sports. A sytem somewhat like that may be useful for Kansas.

Now as for college sports. I really don't accept that preparing HS student atletes for college recruitment is the primary reason for HS sports. Participation, sportsmanship, building of a competitive spirit, life time comraderie (uh oh--there's a socialist term), community pride, and a lot of other factor is what it is all about. In any HS sport only a very few athlete go on to the college level. Those that do may or may not have been in a successsful HS program, or HS satisfied there need to play. Individual will power aor a pushy dad took most of them to college sports. I once read an article about HS football at Albany, Ga--a perinial GA State football power, with a HS FB stadium with a capacity bigger than the town population. Not many grads go on to play college. When asked why, the reply was sme like: where or what is is better than Albany FB.

So, lets cut some slack.

And yes, I am one of those bleeding heart liberals!

Added: I am going to forward your post to the KC KS District AD.

Disagree with HS coaches working wity their athletes year round. KSHSAA position is the right way to go.

Year a round contact with the HS coach puts a lot of unnecessary pressure on the kid. From personal experience, by the time my son graduated from HS--a two sport 4 year varsity 8 letters, he was tired of his coaches and the coaches were tired of my son---and he was a great kid and the coaches were great guys. By restricting the HS coaches lets the athletes work with another coach/es in the off season.

A big danger to letting HS coaches be involved in off season teams is the danger of favortism. My brother lives in Missouri. His son was a baseball player. In Mo, at least in BB, the HS coaches were paid Legion BB coaches. 5 or 6 local HS and 5 or 6 local legion teams, and the Legion and HS teams were linked. According to my bro, accross the board--with all HS and all Legion teams--if you did not play on the HS team/coach you could not play on his legion team.

Interesting change to KSHSAA off season contact and coaching retrictions in 2008 for football, Basketball, and volleyball. Now, during the 8 week period from The weekend before Memorial Day till the 18th of July HS coaches--in only these 3 sports--are not restricted in coaching or in contact with their HS players---can also be the managers or administrators of sports clubs ann/or teams. Also very interesting is the last paragraph telling the coaches that they can not use the off season coaching and contact to discriminate against any of their HS kids

The FB, BB, and VB crowd must have more pull at Topeka than the other sports. Side comment--not too long ago baseball in kansas high schools was classified as an "individual" sport" I assume that was to get around somekind of restrictions.

Now if you want to verify what I have just posted concerning Change to Coaching Restrictions---Check out the KSHSAA home page. Down the left hand column is a list of KSHSAA letters and pubs. You will find a letter with a title with this subject.

We can say there are a lot of problems with "inner city" wrestling programs especially in KCK but the problem is NOT the kids. The problem stems for the lack of a wrestling foundation and support. In smaller towns where everyone wrestles that is what you grow up expecting to do. I don’t have any kids but a lot of kids who wrestle wrestled because their fathers or brothers wrestled. In the "inner city" it’s simply cheaper to enroll your kid in little league basketball. Kids grow up playing basketball and they go to high school like the KCK schools that win high school basketball state championships year after year and send tons of kids on to college and NBA careers.

When I started my wrestling club in 1999 the cost of a kids tournament was $8-$9 and novice was even less. Now the cost of our fundraising efforts simply price some people out of it the same way that little league football and baseball are making a disappearing act as well.

When I coached at Coronado Middle in KCK I would easily get 40-50 kids out per year. It became part of our schools culture. But in middle school I also didn’t have to compete with other sports like basketball. The number of sports available to participate in is ever increasing in the last 10 years that I was as Schlagle we added Rugby, Soccer, Bowling, Tennis, Swimming and a few others. "Inner city" kids simply have more opportunity available to them.

No excuses I think the coaches in the inner city could do MORE but trust me no one wants to go to a wrestling tournament and watch their kids lose match after match. The coaches are tryin to recruit, they are trying to prepare their kids, they want badly to win. I speak from firsthand experience. I wrestled in the "inner city" and I coached kids club, middle school, and high school in the "inner city".

having never discussed this before i do not know how it will be received on this board. my hope is that we can discuss it without labeling anyone anything or name calling. that being said, part of the issue with inner city is racial cultures. basketball is part of the african-american culture, wrestling is not. a prime example of this would be turner high school. turner is in kck(although is its own school district) and has a very diverse student population. i dont know turner's line up now as well as i did a few years ago when i lived in the kc area (and when turner won state) but i do not remember a single african american on their state championship team or their team that got 2nd the following year. a few hispanics and then majority white, no african americans. a lot of inner city schools do not have the white population that turner does. so they are stricty going after african american kids to wrestle. I think the question that we need to ask ourselves is, how do we reach the african american culture with wrestling. in my eyes right now its not very widespread, and yes, i know we can all point to specific wrestlers that are african american, on the whole though i do not believe its really part of the african american culture. their is an "Reviving Baseball in the Inner City" league in Kansas City that is predominantly minorities and aimed at reaching that population. I don't know how effective it is but it is an attempt. Could we do the same with wrestling in some fashion? How? Does anyone think my assessment is accurate? Or am I way off base? Interested in hearing people's opinions...

That may have been true at one time but I think now it is more a result of many or even a few parents or supporters who keep the embers burning for our sport. I have always suggested that the best way to keep programs at the youth level going is to create boards of directors and non-profit corporations. That way when the one or two people who have run the program for years finally wear out there are people waiting in the wings to take control.


A problem that effects every school in this state! When we continue to offer "additional opportunities to our students" all we do is dilute the quality of all of our products. The current and future budget battles may serve a purpose in doing away with some of the really non-revenue producing sports.

Unfortunately I believe wrestling might be one of those "non-revenue producing sports" in some areas. We might be heading for alot of co-ops in more areas. At the very least I think there will be alot of self-funding and fund drives as supporters/parents are asked to carry some of the load. This unfortunately happens right as many families have great restrictions on their incomes and jobs. It is going to get interesting.

24/7

I think you are right on point. But until we start at the grass roots with kids clubs attracting elementary aged kids nothin will ever change. Many of the kids that wrestle in high school now do it because I was able to provide them the experience of kids club. Turner has 2 kids on their team for my club, Sumner 1, Wyandotte 1, Schlagle 5, Washington 1, Park Hill South 1, and Bishop Meige 2. Let's just say when I went to the Meige Regional it was a virtual reunion. This shows that kids exposed to wrestling at a younger age (middle school) are more likely to continue. I don’t know if it’s a black thing or white thing but I do know that the few kids I had the opportunity to work with carry the same love of the sport that I had. With that being said until these kids are provided opportunities to wrestle for and with people who have a strong love and passion for the sport. When they can get on the mat in club near them after the season is over. This topic will appear on the board year after year after year...

IT IS, in all areas! But, there are even less revenue producing sports that don't have near the following or success as ours.


We should never accept co-ops. Would fans of another winter sport be accepting of their team being coached by the football coach come regionals?


This should have been happening already in every program. If your local club is not carrying a huge part of the financial load for the school program then the club isn't doing their job.