Is it just me or are officials not paying ANY attention to how the top man starts? They get away with Tight Waists, starting on the wrist, the bicep, the hand (including the thumb)in front of the elbow. This isnt just happening in the kids division but High School and College as well. If the Rule is not going to be enforced, maybe we should just do away with it and let them start however they choose.

This happened at a High School Tournament this weekend and the official said, "it is really not an advantage either way." I beg to differ, let me start by the rules and then how the official was allowing them to start. Gonnna be a long two minutes for him on bottom the latter.

I had one coach tell me that he tells his kids to start with a tight waist because most officials wont call it anyways, and if they do just go back to starting correctly. I got to watching, 90% of officials do not caution an incorrect start.

Any thoughts?

I agree...
Since the rule change this year it has gone from one extreme to the other.
Last year the top guy had to pay attention to how he got on
Knee belly elbow
Some wrestlers even started with the hand behind the back for those really picky refs. It seems this year the top gut just does the "plop" and grabs ahold.
In my opinion since its not top of mind for refs its not on their mind at all.

I definitely agree with you on this Beeson. Wrestlers get on top and stick the arm in deep enough that the entire hand is past the belly button of their opponent. Unless the rules have changed, I am thinking that is a caution on the top wrestler. By the way, I have never heard you cry. It is kind of unsettling. Anyway, off to the Newton Tournament of Champions. I guess we will see some of your Ark City brethren down there.

I think you are just crying....lol..j/k


I actually seen a kid start not once but twice with his arm raised in front of the down guys arm for the chop, twice in a row and no call or even a "hey it has to at least be on the arm somewhere"

I have seen kids started this year with one haveing a tight waight AND ankle already...nothing called or done.

The hand cupping over the elbow will be seen forever.

Nice!!

Not only not starting correctly but also weak whistles and not standing in front of the kids when they start. Not sure there is a rule that the ref has to stand directly in front but we teach the kids to look for the ref so they can go right off the whistle. Kind of hard to do when the ref is off to one side or even behind the wrestlers when he blows the whistle.

I see what you are saying. Just wish that the refs would start all matches the same. I have seen alot of other things that refs are not doing the same. I know alot of people say it is just a judgement call. But come on. You cant have somethings be ok with one and not with others. Its just like if you have coaches not teaching the same way. It will not turn out good. So, to our refs, lets try to get on the same page with the way the rule is stated.

the referee should set the bottom man, then set the top man, then set both men (with a verbal command) before blowing the whistle. i have noticed at tourneys that most officials just, keep it moving along.

The rules do not specify where the official must be when the whistle is blown, and the reason we as officials do move around on the mat is to look for incorrect starting positions (ie, the leg between the down wrestlers legs, leg up against his butt, head off the midline, etc.), also so the wrestlers cannot "jump" the whistle by the official doing the same thing every time, they should go off the whistle and the whistle alone, no visual cues. This is why the official will sometimes walk around or even be behind the wrestlers when the whistle is blown, but will usually come around to the front very quickly to continue his match duties.

so when the kid on top is wrapping his back leg around the bottom kid is that the correct starting position. i saw it alot at haysville. lots of cautions but not one time did a ref say anything about that. just curious.

You know Scott we tried real hard to have atop of the line crew today and I think we did. But I totally agree with you.
The thing that I am seeing more and more of is the top man starting with a tight waist.
I even seen coaches telling their kids to start that way be cause its just not top of mind for the refs this year.

To all, I seen alot more then that going on. But, one thing i did see that upset me a lot was kids useing head gear and singlets for leaverage. Can someone tell me the rule on that one. Just want to be clear on it. One other thing is the boundies rule for kids. I seen alot of refs calling different things. Not just with other refs but with themself. Please help me know what it that we are looking for.

With Kid's the out of bounds is kind of subject to the ref's discretion, as the boundary usually is only a foot or so from the edge of the mat, where as in high school / college the line is the out of bounds but has extra mat beside it. I would venture to say the officials were erroring on the side of caution and preventing the kids from going out of bounds onto the floor.

Grasping of the headgear or singlet is a technical violation and shall be penalized accordingly. (I think it's a Technical, don't have my book to double check, but will get the rule as stated afterwhile.)

Thanks for that. Then I say that the refs need to move around the mat more, because, yesterday i only saw one Technical for that, and saw alot of them not even giving a warnning. Thats not a good thing. I understand that being a ref is a big job and they take alot of heat from ppl. But we have got to get the basic call right. i mean at least more of them being called at all.

You can't grab head gear or singlets. I believe that is a one point penalty. I am not sure about the boundies. It doesn't sound good though.

The other thing is, sometimes a hand or finger or whatever just gets caught in the singlet/headgear during a move, an easy way to see it is if force is applied pulling it towards an offensive position, or was there an advantage earned because of it (did they use it to try to score?). Please don't tear this apart as I probably didn't explain it enough.

Like when my 5 yr old has a singlet that is too big, and another kid gets his arm caught in it, the other kid didn't do it to gain an advantage, you stop the match before they get too tangled up, but no penalty point. But if he grabbed that singlet and swung my kid around in the ole' helicopter move, he'd be penalized a point........

Exactly thank you for the example, and in kids you usually see kids with singlets too big because it's all the club has.

There are too many incorrect starting positions slipping by...at least at the HS level, and I imagine its the same all around. It will probably start to tighten up as the year progresses....too many tight waists, hand over, not behind, the elbow, and heads hanging over the side....