Sorry Chief, but not even being close to the same. In GE the school designated the place and time. On the mat before the wrestling is not being designated by the host school, the tournament manager, or by KSHSAA. Being set up by a few kids---and I think under the direction of their parents. Are you not a preacher/pastor--you at least said you hosted a radio bible study show. I think someone in the Van Linder family is/or was a preacher.

Maybe those that are so concerned about activity in the "middle of the Mat" should censor all verbalization and activities in the middle of the mat to insure that those activities and words don't offend anybody in attendance. Perhaps they should get their warm up routine, and all conversation approved ahead of time? Censors should probably arrive about 2 hours before the meets start and be sure to be out there during all breaks. That should sum up the absurdity of this conversation! I am so very proud of all involved! God Bless and Good Luck to all!

How about censoring some music that is played during down times at tournaments? I went to a tournament in Bitburg, and I don't know what an ICE CREAM PAINT JOB is, but I got a headache trying to decipher whether or not to be offended!

I was a wrestler last year and this is an amazing and truly special event for those of you who do not agree with this i dare you to go talk to one of the wreslters themselves and ask there opinion i find it very sad that parents you are sitting here and trying to prevent kids who are coming together for something greater then wrestling. I would support something started by the kids themselves it truly is sad you are trying to bring something a 17 year old kid started for his fellow wrestlers down. Last of all isnt religous freedoms omething our country was founded upon we live in this country because we are free to do these things if you really are this upset im sure China would enjoy your presence if you want to start regulating things. (Last sentence not be taken seriously)

Prove it for all known history with numbers and references. People have been mass killing each other for thousands of years for religious/religous based ethnic genocide, wars, conflicts. Economics and politics are distant 2nd or 3rd, splus many supposed politically driven mass murdeer goes back to religion. A prime example is the genocidic deportation and transportation of Armenian Christians in the early 1900s by the Ottoman Turks in Turkey. Believed to have killed over 1.5 million Armenians. This was is recognized as the first organized genocide and predated the Nazi Holocaust by 25++ years---it is also recognized in history as the "first holocaust."

One example. Can Google more if needed. But just reinforces my point: you need to do some serious reading of history!!! A little overview of history in high school does not make you a historian. Here is a web site that offers a long list of religous based death and wars. http://www.theskepticalreview.com/JAHPoliticsDeathToll.html

This is being made something much more then it needs to be it is simply a group of wrestlers huddling around for maybe 3 minutes praying then going about there buisness trust me Contrarian and C B the world is not coming to an end a lightning bolt will not strike them in the middle of the mats why sit here and destroy something great that young teenagers started! Maybe you should talk to the young man who started this program because he has the upmost respect for everyones beliefs.

Yea.. How about less boom diddy boom and some Rock and Roll and Country Music--but at a lower decibel level. Would be nice to be able to hear and understand the words!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who is the music for again? Same thing with the praying, we take too much away from kids today. Let them lead and see where they go, maybe they will make this world a better place!
I am blown away by this post being the longest discussion on a wrestling forum this year! And I have no feelings either way!
Brown

First, I think last year the initial mention of this activity was by a parent--I think who is/was also a preacher, who was directing his kid, Michael VL, in organizing all this.

Second, I do not object to prayer in or on the public school, as long as it is done in the proper way. Why can it not be done away from the wrestling arena, in a designated area perhaps a hallway, a class room, in a private and personal manner. All approved by a school official. I do object in the way it is being organized and publicized--it is not now a private, personal prayer free of cohersion.

I surely am no preacher, Chief Renegade would agree, but I think that Christians actively believe they have to publicly demonstrate their piety. Public 'witnessing" or testifying" to them is the highest demonstration of the expression of their reliigion. Not only do they personally do it, but if they can include, by force of words actions, etc., others to participate, then they may be be able to accomplish the ultimate relious coup---the conversion of a non believer. I rember Brother Daniels at the end of the service in the Baptist Church I attended with my grandfather 60 years ago---his white hair flowing, eyes sparking, sweating like a ................, thumping the bible and yelling "its in the book", and then saying over and over "come on down". Modern day religion is bland and not like the old days. In those days you had to be first chastized and then uplifted.

Excuse any spelling or grammer errors.

About as long as last year.

Who is the music for. If to spin up the wrestlers play Eye of the Tiger continuously. Doubt if boom diddy boom charges them up. Why boom diddy boom in a country school anyway?

Less decibels lets the spectators have an opportunity to read the program, talk to their neighbors, talk to their wrestlers, enjoy the day---all without a splitting headache and ringing ears.

Topeka Highland Regional - Wrestler from Shawnee Heights High School
Beloit Regional - Wrestler from Lyons High School

All 3-2-1A Regionals are filled for at least a day. Looking for both days if possible. Also, a couple from 4A 5A and 6A that are getting confirmed. Looks like our youth leaders are really stepping up!

Just a side note - Wrestlers For Christ was established two years ago by Brett and Harry LaMar, Michael and Doug Vander Linden. No one in the group is/was ever a preacher of any sort. We are all just guys that truly love wrestling and our God. My father encourages my actions in this group and helps when I ask him to. However, I've never been "directed" to organize anything. It is my choice to do what I feel is right and to continue with Wrestlers For Christ.

Michael Vander Linden

OK. If not a preacher or preachers' sons. What is "some sort"

Michael, perhaps when you and Brett grow up, age, get educated and have been to see a lot of the world outside Burlington, Kansas, hopefully you may understand some of the concerns other than yours expressed in this page. I commend you for your beliefs and your actions. But, that does not necessarily make them right with the rest of this countries beliefs. I do not attack you or Brett, so why do you, Harry, Brett and Doug and Chief, and others attack me or others who question something we think could be done in a better way--also a more legal and proper way. The way this is being pushed is like some white guy running through a black neighborhood screaming the "N" word. America is a very diverse country: ethnic, politically, economically, and religously. Every little group has its say, but not atb the expense of all others. Good luck. Bill Mason, Lansing KS, a wrestling fan and father of an ex HS wrestler. Will see a bunch of you at Holton

Contrarian- If we have the right do to something in public why would we need to do it in private and the actaul sessions and organizations is and was led by Brett and Michael, and various other individuals holding the sessions at other regionals. Now why is the fact that there doing this on the mat killing you? Do you have to watch? do you have to listen? Do you have to participate? The anwser to all of those is simply no. Its not like they are doing this over a microphone in front of everyone its on the side of the mat in a little group while everyone else is running around talking it simply doesnt bother anyone except yourself for some odd reason.

Personally i think you should be more worried about Fred Phelps. But i dont know were you are getting " more legal and proper way" this is the legal way show us all were it is illegal.

You haven't read many of the posts---nor have you read the private message I have recieved. More than just me, CB, and rassler question the propriety of this "unorganized, private, and personal prayer" conducted in a public school event. Takke your kid and go to church. Do not bring you church to a wrestling tournament.

As for its legality? One, it is against KSHSAA policy to conduct public religous services at a KSHSAA event. KSHSAA sent an email to regional sponsoring schools and tournament managers last year statinfg such. Two, I think under generally accepted laws, schools can designate a time and place for organized/unorganized religously activities. Do not think any school district or individual shool has designated a gym at a regional as the place to holsd a prayer session. I feel confident, if requested, that a district and a school wold gladly have designnated a time and a private place for such a prayer. If we are going to do it, do it right.

1- there is nothing illegal about this
2- your second statement is ridiculous, and uncalled for
3- tell me how this prayer is at your expense, you are a spectator your place is in the stands, reading the program, talking to friends, eating some popcorn, and watching wrestling. you paid for the seat, now sit down and be quiet i'm trying to watch some wrestling.

You fail to anwser this entire time how this effects you. Please anwser

Headup. THE big question of this whole issue is (first let's change legal or illegal to permissable or non-permissable, or to authorized or not authorized) Why did Michael, Harry, Brett and Doug, and Chief, and Other who push this NOT ask the hosting schhols and KSHSAA for approval. You know what I think, they think it would not be permitted as presented (on the mat before the wrestling). So rather than risk being told NO, they decided to do it on the QT and to hell with seeking permission. If it happens, so be it. But, there was a better avenue. And yes, forcing others to watch or listen to your religious service is intrusive.

I would like to hear from M VL, Brett L, Harry and Doug, and Chief, why they did not ask for permission to have this nonprivate and public private prayer service.

unless you wanna change what the founding fathers wrote ur simply wrong, our constitution and bill of rights kind of permit this.

Willie 424. Good question. Probably will not affect me at all. Was at a regional and if it was done there did not notice.

What does bother, is the manner in how it is being. There is a right way and a wrong way, and it is being done in the wrong way. Read my last posts questioning why M V L and crew did not seek permission, authority etc before the fact. Also, I think it is very intrusive, and rude, to hold such an event in this setting when there is a mix of people and religions in attendance. Those not wiiling or agreeing to participate are forced to set there and watch or listen, to turn their back, or to leave the arena. Why do I have to leave? The wrestlers could walk to a hall or a classsroom for there paryer.