I am a middle school coach, I also have a son who attends middle school. He enjoys participating in national tournaments.

I will be the first to admit that he is not the best in the country, however he is above the novice catagory. He also enjoys middle school wrestling.

I agree that there are benifits to both school and club wrestling. Fortunatly there are opportunities for Kansas kids to do both. I also feel the KSHAA could loosen up a little.

My problem is the assumption that if a kid wrestles for a middle school it will somehow impede his development as a wrestler. I have watched lots of wrestling practices and coaches at the kids, middle school,and highschool level. There are good and bad at all three levels.

I can assure you that if I thought for a moment that wrestling for the middle school was a detriment to my son I would not allow it. Several years ago I had a kid wrestle for me, I take NO CREDIT for developing this young man, He was a great wrestler and hard worker before I ever got him. And although he wrestled for me in both the 7th and 8th grade, I don't think It slowed his progress.

This kid won a state championship his freshman year in highschool, and is currently on track to win his 3rd division II national championship. He has proven he can wrestle with any kid in the country Division I or II, and when someone asked him why he didn't jump to division one he said his current school gave him his opportunity, and they were the ones who developed him. Great kid huh?

P.S The kid grew up in Kansas goes to school in Oklahoma loves them both!

Coach Melliott and Coach DB777,

I enjoyed your posts because it gave me some more insight into the general level of middle school wrestling and the perspective of a middle school coach. After reading your posts I had to go back to last year's topic and see what was said then because I had the memory from it that the general quality of middle school wrestling was not up to the level of club wrestling. After looking at last year's topic again, I guess I still have the impression that overall the quality is not as high expect in some middle school districts where the majority of high performing kids are wrestling in the middle school season. I really don't know because I have never seen it in our area of the State and my son would not be eligible for it anyway.

My question for both of you though centers on the other aspect of my previous post. If there are a good number of first time wrestlers involved in the middle school programs, do you think it is a good experience for them to encounter in their first season former Kids State and maybe even National Champions in matches? I believe that they would not be ready for that and possibly get discouraged enough that they might decide to give up the sport. I think they would be better off if the experienced accomplished kids could just come to practices and serve as assistants to you the coaches. I have just seen a lot of kids quit the sport early due to lack of early success. It seems like most of the posts on this topic have centered on the advanced kid. I am just wondering more now if matches with the advanced kid are really that good for the beginners. But again I have never been to a middle school tournament so maybe these type of matches really do not occur that often.

Vince,
Not to speak for the coaches but I think alot depends on the time of year that a middle school league begins competition. Like noted earlier our middle school doesn't start till after Tulsa so I think we get a higher percentage of those top wrestlers back for middle school. Most of the high profile national tournaments within driving distance are done so the competition in middle school probably exceeds the local kids tournaments. Plus our club only practices 3 nights a week as opposed to the middle schools 4-5 nights. One thing that deletes the talent level in middle school is there are probably a few too many weights but that also can be an advantage for the novice middle schooler.

Good to be back to the discussion. Sportsfan02 Glad we never YELLED at each other. I even thought we had started getting civil .

I really appreciate the posts lately. Vince brings up a great point I would like to see debated more but so do both of the coaches. I obviously find myself agreeing quite a bit with melliott. Part of the question is how do you get the KSHAA to "loosen up a little" as you describe? It has been my experience that they have not been willing to do this. I even find myself agreeing with Sportsfan02 regarding the possibility of finding ways to organize middle school leagues to take place at least after Tulsa Nationals. That was the primary reason we decided to go club this year. The truth is that for us, we have also discovered many friends that we only see at some of these national tournaments. It had nothing to do with the coaching in that we know that Derby is one of the schools that has great middle school coaches. We know that this district has made a commitment to wrestling which is the reason we are there. I must say though, that for some schools, in all states, in some sports, there are coaches that don't know that much about the sport they are coaching. For those of us who have coached on a high school level we know this to be true, especially in some sports including at some schools, even wrestling. This is where the booster clubs, elementary programs, and other groups can become a tremendous asset in insuring that all schools get quality coaches. I think Vince’s point is rather valid, as is again Sportsfan02 on this issue. The question for the coaches, is there any chance to have the season in the Wichita, Derby area at a different time, this year for example there was no way to wrestle many of the tournaments including specifically USJOC and Tulsa Nationals. Another question for the coaches is do they have the option of scheduling some of those tournaments into their schedule? Sportsfan02, apparently you have been part of a league or have knowledge of this recently taking place, any suggestions from you here would also be appreciated. By the way, I still believe the best opportunity is to allow both, but if that don’t occur Sportsfan02’s suggestion if available to us, would have motivated us to do both this year.

To address the question that Vince asks.
I am sure that it happens at kids tournaments just as it happens at middle school matches as well. I think how the kid will react is a reflection of his character. The kid usually knows he is going to wrestle a stud and get beat badly, but he understands why he got beat and realizes that he will not beat that kid for a few years at least. Many times they get inspired to become that good and I have seen a few succeed. I have had wrestlers that started in 7th grade take their lumps and are currently wrestling with the best of them in high school. Another aspect of this situation is coaching a complete stud that wrestles a novice wrestler. They learn sportsnmanship. I make sure they do not embarress or intentionally hurt a kid.

A novice wrester may get taken to the wood shed by another novice wrestler and quit. Lets face it, wrestling is not for everyone. Most novice wrestlers face other novices in B team competition anyway.

As far as moving the season goes if you do not start until mid febuary, when would it end. Sub-district begins in March. Right now many schools start in early January and end the first of March. The only movement I have heard of is moving the season so kids can wrestle and play basketball in the same year. No answer will make everyone happy, but I think that it is clear if all kids middle school age wrestled on the school team, than we would not have a problem with competition. For me, most kids do join the team after competing in kids in december. They may miss a few tournies, but they make it back for state and the qualifying tournies. In the meantime they do a little wrestling too.

The last point I will make is that Mid school is a transition time. Some great kid wrestlers will be surprised by the competition because of developmental issues. Early bloomers can catch up real quick at this level. This is the time to adjust to a high school type of wrestling. Some moves just dont work anymore. Maybe some kids coaches realize this, but I see many that continue to teach the same things. Gotta run

DB777... very well said. Also believe this is a time to start creating the team unity concept. I don't know if this aspect is developed at the club level.

Another thing to consider is eighth graders who are 13 (and wrestle 14 & under), don't have many ninth graders to wrestle during high school season. I've been watching the results of youth wrestling, and it appears that very few accomplished ninth graders participate in junior wrestling until after they're done with school. So I would recommend school for most of the older boys. If they truely love wrestling, there is Topeka Nationals as well as summer competition.

ghens,
I'm not sure I understand your last post. Ninth- graders would be wrestling with their high school teams from November to the end of February. Even if your school is under the junior high system (as opposed to middle school), those ninth-graders would/should be practicing with the high school. Thus they would not be eligible for kids until the coach releases them prior to regionals (if they are not on varsity), or after they are eliminated at regionals or following high school state. Thus there should be no ninth-graders wrestling kids right now unless they go to a school that does not offer wrestling at the high school.

DB777,

Another thing to add to your post is coaches bumping kids up in weight to fill an opening in the line-up or to take advantage of match-ups. This can compensate for a more experienced wrestler going against a lesser one. Last year I heard rumors of a 50# bump but I'm sure that's just urban legend!

My post was a comment on school wrestling vs kids at the eighth grade level. I was just saying that for our family school was better. We never liked traveling that much and there doesn't seem to be that many guys participating in kids at our age/weight class anyway. So why not wrestle school and not have to travel far, be in a gym all day, pay entry fees, etc.. just to wrestle the same kids over and over again.

Coach DB777:

At first I was going to counter with the statement that club wrestling has a novice division and that offers a type of shield for the first year wrestler. But I read your reply again and it seems that middle school wrestling has a B division that is probably the equivalent of that.

I appreciate your answer. I can tell that you and the rest of the strong proponents of middle school wrestling are doing your best to help the first year wrestlers adjust properly to their new tough sport. I know that is their best chance to succeed and continue in the sport by having great teachers and coaches like you people. I really like your comment about teaching your advanced wrestlers to be good sports and not to embarrass the new wrestlers.

Good luck to all you middle school wrestlers, coaches and parents the rest of your school season. We will be looking forward to your return to club wrestling for both the good competition and to continue our friendships. Plus I want to see some of these very good kids wrestle again.

A little off subject but your are right KAnsas rules don't always follow the national norm... BUT in the case of wrestlingi think it is a good thing... KANSAS HIGH SCHOOL wrestling is not nearly restricted as other states and I think out kids benefit from it.

There isn't a Kansas Nationals this year. It was moved to a different state. Other than the state saying "NO", what would be wrong with a Middle School or even High School team entering USJOC, Tulsa Nationals, Cliff Keen, Liberty as a TEAM. Why not give the more "advanced" wrestler the opportunity to reach beyond their own back yard???