??

Leave it up to the athlete 1 or 2 sports... Wrestle MS or stay in kids...I didn't taint Jonny's mind with any negitive opinions. Went over the PRO's & CON's and intend to leave it up to him. As of now he doesn't intend to wrestle MS cause he doesn't want to miss Tulsa, his reg practice & friends. I'm sure the MS coach will convince him to wrestle by next year but it'll be up to Jonny. He quit football said he was concentrating on wrestling. Talked to him then supported him and applaud his drive.

As for "team" aspect he was on at least 5 Dual teams last year and loves doing it alot. But I don't know he'd find the same pleasure in a Dual of few seasoned and most are new wrestlers. We went to a HS reginal last year he and I were both suprised by the level of competion. Now if he choose not to wrestle HS I'll be devistated but will not make him

Our experience with Jr. High/Middle School wrestling was very positive. We were fortunate to be in a solid program that wrestled some quality competition for seven weeks in November/December and had an exceptional coach. If all programs had our fortune, Middle School wrestling numbers and level of competition would grow across the state. Unfortunately, I don't think that will ever be the case. Either way, the team concept of Middle School wrestling can be a great experience for a club wrestler on the verge of competing at the high school level.

I coach Middle School and I did club for many years. I love the middle school set up but I do agree that everybody in Kansas should be on the same schedule. It is also correct that I bring in so many new kids to the sport and some of them go on to compete at the highest level in High School. Some of my wrestlers never wrestled club but go on to be State Placers at the High School level. I push for those kids to continue their seasons after ours by doing regionals and freestyle/Greco in the summer. One particular wrestler went out his seventh grade year and fell in love with it and attended two camps this summer. That is the good news for a people who love club... in our league you still get to do the Wichita Classic and Regional s and so on... However, to answer the question that was posed at the beginning of this thread... Why Middle School... in our case at Newton, because it's fun. I know that club tournaments can be fun too and I am not accusing Club wrestling of not being fun. However, these kids love being a part of our program, enjoy the coaching, enjoy the training and love the wrestling. I am sure that there are more matches and better matches in club if your willing to pay and travel but we are having some of the best and most competitive matches right in our own wrestling room every day. All I do for club kids is release them back out on the circuit in the best shape of their young lives with a few more skills and some well drilled fundamentals. Many club wrestlers have traveled through my room and I suppose you should ask them... do they regret it? Do they think it hurt them? I'll leave up to you to decide whats best for your child. Meanwhile, we'll keep having fun.

I think that I can answer this question about as well as anyone. Several years ago, I pushed very hard to have the JH season in our part of the state moved to the early season. I did this for two essential reasons. First and foremost, I feel that it is in the best interest of HS wrestling. By wrestling the JH season early, it allows the more dedicated kids to continue on to the large tournaments after Christmas. Our season is actually over on December 3rd this year, so it allows most of December as well. Just as importantly, in my opinion, it begins to instill the philosophy of TEAM at the junior high level. We were understandably losing most of our best wrestlers to the kids program, and the JH program was watered down to the point that it was tough to watch. Now, the vast majority of good kids are in their JH teams, and tournaments are MUCH tougher. To be honest, I want to puke when I hear that wrestling is an individual sport. It's not. When it gets down to it, kids will wrestle harder for their TEAM than they will for just themselves. Nothing is more important than that. I would take a team championship any day over an individual one. The philosophy of ME FIRST is a selfish one. Will wrestling the junior high season for 6 weeks in October and November with your future high school team mates hurt you when it comes to college recruiting? Give me a freaking break! An advanced kid has from the middle of December through most of the summer to wrestle for himself.

This year, most of our 31 wrestlers are first year 7th graders. We will take a beating early. We have a few experienced kids, but very few. Thats just our situation right now. Hopefully most of these kids will stay out through high school and create competition and depth in the room. That's our goal. For some kids, we put a huge emphasis on winning. For some, tomorrow we just hope that they have learned enough not to put their ankle band on their wrist the first time they step on the mat at Goodland. Either way, we are going to try convince them that the toughest sport in high school athletics has value that they can carry with them for the rest of their lives. I guess the bottom line is this. I see JH wrestling as a feeder program to the HS, and I hope to see it build and prosper. Carlos, I also think that if Michael were here, he would be in the JH program. I would bribe you!
Rick Cue
Ulysses

To me there are two major issues with MS (it is no longer JH anywhere in KS. All FR are no in HS throughout the entire state).

1. Standardize the season and make it early. One league continues a week past the end of the KSHSAA HS season.
2. Deregulate the participation restriction. Allow wrestlers to club practice in addition to if they so desire. Let them go to clinics if they so desire. If their team is not competing on a weekend then allow them to compete in open tournaments.

and a bonus
3) Allow coaches to coach outside of the season. If a kid wants to be coached and a coach is willing to devote his time to the kid or a club then let it happen. No wrestling coach in the state will get away with MANDATING practices outside of the season. It might be a team sport but it is very individual as far as motivation and establishing who is the best.

The greatest attribute of wrestling is that the wrestlers determine who is on varsity. The best at each weight. Leave the politics and booster club babies out of the equation. If Johnny wants to wrestle whatever weight and he beats all of the others then he is the starter whether he is a FR or a SR.

The biggest detriment to improvement of wrestling in KS is the restriction placed on coaches not allowing contact from March through May.

Wrestling is an individual sport the team consept is irrelevant. Wrestlers will get plenty of that when they get to highsckool. Its not that important at this level but being able to compeat is. So I say do what is going to make them the best they can be. In my opinion the more matches the better and your not going to get that through middle sckool. Just an opinion

Will, I don't think that the standardized season in JH (MS) will never happen. It should. There are probably too many schools where basketball runs things and it may interfere with the gym usage. Not saying I agree, not by any means, but I think that's factual. I wish it wasn't that way, but I think that is the main reason that many small town middle schools out west haven't gone to the early season. I agree with everything that you say. Until things change, it really helps to have the best club coaches that you can. It's a HUGE difference maker. Personally, I think I'm getting close to hanging up the whistle and spending more time chasing the big deer with the stick and string. I have a pretty good idea of what is relevant. I've been in this sport in one way or another for a very long time. I can't be convinced that one dedicated wrestler is more important to society in general than a full team...a band of brothers...pulling together. I feel pretty strongly about that.

Well when your on the mat your brothers can't help you. If you could get alot more matches middle sckool would be find in my opinion but theirs a big difference between 10 and 40. And the competition is alot higher in kids club. Just an opinion.

Bill Zadick spoke about this particular subject at the KWCA coach's clinic. Mr. Zadick had some great insight and thoughts about what we are doing as a nation to our young wrestlers that might be putting us at a disadvantage on the international level. It was really quite interesting and this thread was even mentioned. It would be nice if I could find a transcript of his talk today or even an editorial written by him because he did a great job of putting it all in perspective. I couldn't do it justice to take up his argument here but he does somewhat support the idea of more practice and training and less matches.

Very well said.

Rick,
So your saying I should make my son wrestle middle school even though he doesn't want to? There are things that you should and shouldn't force on your kids and in our case wrestling middle school is not one of them. I don't think this decision will affect his well being.

I totally get and understand the team concept thing and so does my son. To clear things up about wrestling with his future high school team mates, well he can't because he will be attending a different high school next year, at least I hope so.

As far as being selfish? Well we'll let all of you be the judge of that. Last time I checked they didn't give out a team championship or individual championship for middle school wrestling. As a parent/coach I will guide and support my son down the road that he wants to take in wrestling. This year HE decided not to wrestle middle school and I will support him.

Finally, something to ponder:
Would you rather have wrestled double digit matches and won every one without being scored upon and totally dominating your opponents? or Wrestle that same number of matches and having lost a few along the way and being pushed in the others?

I do think Kansas has too many restrictions on athletes playing sports during a specific sport season, ie not being able to wrestle in a club and school at the same time. As for the arguement over public schools and private schools, that was a bit disappointing. You have one person debating equality, and the other person taking it too personal by sending attacking responses by claiming he "pays his taxes" "lessening the burden on public schools", and Private schools having more or motivated parents...Hog-wash...that is nonsense. We all know this private school vs public school issue is out there and there are some convincing issues to it. To me, that's not the issue.

The issue is athlete development. Why restrict? Yes, it could be a person's only means of particpating or his first time wrestling...Okay....so let's restrict the others.

If you want a change, get someone to lobby for it...

Carlos, I understand your points completely. I think that your situation may be a little unique, to be sure. You don't get better by wrestling weaker competition. We have all seen the wrestler with a huge record fall aside quickly in regionals. I think that you may even see more of that with all of the dual tournaments and so many open weight classes in the small school tournaments. I think I had two state champions back in the 90's with double digit losses. I am probably a little biased since I am coaching middle school now. I don't think that you can have a top 5 high school program without having a great kids club. The competition was MUCH better last year after going to the early season.

One last point. Someone stated that your "brothers" can't help you on the mat. Think about this...You are only as good as your "brothers". Who would I pick to win this state championship match. A kid with a 30-5 record off of a team with ten qualifiers and a chance at a state team title, or an undefeated kid off a team with 2 qualifiers?

I think I will shut up now and watch this thread.

It was good to see you and Michael last night.

I posted this last year on the same type of MS wrestling v. Club Wrestling post around February or so, shortly after we came back from Tulsa with the boy feeling a lil disappointed:



I still feel the same way. Have to say though I know others have different circumstances, I am not coaching my own boy in HS wrestling. Also Lawrence South MS wrestling is the feeder program for Lawrence High, we were pretty fortunate to be involved with them. But in the end, Win or lose I still think it's about the journey and what they learn from it. Just my experience. On the plus side, the boys back with some old workout partners in HS and fired up to represent his High School he's loved before he even started wrestling!

Good luck to everyone this year and I am pretty exicited to see some good HS wrestlers on the mat!

Bronson,

I am glad you re-posted that information as I must have missed it last year. I am glad that Tristan is now in the HS wrestling room (not to mention that his dad will be at most if not all of his competitions - I hope). It should be a lot of fun.