Back when I drank a lot of whiskey, I did the bump and slide at the Neon Cactus on W. 13th.........

The last time I did the bump and slide, we had an ice storm and I fell against my car door and slid down the drive way. It sounds like you had a lot more fun.

Very interesting how this thread morphed from "What weight to wrestle?" to "Is wrestling a team or individual sport?". Just when you thought it was dead or wished it was dead, it rises from the ashes like the Phoenix.

I will say one of the great things about wrestling is that it is the ultimate individual/team sport. You get to experience the best of both worlds.

There have been a lot of great comments about this giving merit to both lines of thought. I am certainly not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone or any comments that have been made. But honestly, in my opinion which has been developed over almost 50 years in wrestling as a little league, high school and college wrestler and 20 years as a high school head coach in two different states at four very different school districts and thus programs as well as junior high and little league coach, and now as a father/coach exclusively, WRESTLING HAS BEEN, IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE AN INDIVIDUAL SPORT. I really believe that this is the bottom line and in most cases we should do what is best for the individual first.

That doesn't mean I don't believe that a kid shouldn't make sacrifices for the team or be bumped from time to time when it is appropriate. In my experiences I have certainly done it more than once. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes it didn't. Sometimes it produced a positive response and sometimes it didn't. Sometimes it pissed the H.... out of a kid or a parent. Sometimes it made a kid feel good and sometimes it made a kid feel like crap. I did things early in my career that I would never do now. When I look back now and think about times when I compromised an individual’s well being for a dual victory, I realize I was just being selfish, being a selfish coach looking for another win and I was wrong. A kid did his job, earned his spot and made weight and shouldn't be rewarded by having to bump up and wrestle a bigger kid and maybe take a loss. With the difference in weight alone and perhaps weight cutting that he has experienced it is not a level playing field for him and that is certainly not wrestling. A coach can feel, or should be able to, when a kid is uncomfortable with a bump and should never make him suffer unnecessary anxiety and possible demoralization for another win on the coach’s record. I am not disagreeing with Alley at all, I certainly respect him, his philosophy and his accomplishments. I do agree that there are wonderful lessons to be learned by taking one for the team and sometimes the team can elevate the individuals, but that doesn't necessarily make it the right move always. If a kid is genuinely excited about this wonderful opportunity that a coach has provided him then go for it. A kid should never be made to feel bad though ever for not wanting that. I could see bumping as appropriate for a dual state tournament but not necessarily for just some dual or even some dual tournament or traditional tournament. Never would it be acceptable for regional and subsequently state unless that is really, really, really what the kid wants. I know some coaches that don't care about dual wins at all, they just care about state.

I like the comments about wrestling needs the team concept to survive. It makes sense at some levels. This certainly could apply to college, but does not apply at all to high school wrestling or lower. High school wrestling is doing well and is 6th in participation and 5th in spectator participation and I don't believe it will ever go away. I would be much more worried about gymnastics, tennis, golf, swimming, bowling, lacrosse, hockey, etc. Wrestling is Man's oldest sport. It is one of the original three Olympic sports and has been contested in every Olympic game. It is the first sport mentioned in the Bible and in literatures first piece, the Epic of Gilgamesh. Virtually every country on the planet has an Olympic team and most now have a women's team. It has been one of the staples for every military program and endeavor since the Dawn of Humanity. Thirteen different Presidents credit their success to wrestling. I could go on and on about Angels, Kings, Movie Stars, CEOs, Politicians, Professional FB players and of course MMA competitors.

As far as college, it is a little different I know. You are being "paid" in most instances by the school/team that you represent. But it is still an individual sport and mainly promoted that way. One of the keys to "saving" it or at least keeping the program numbers up in my mind is creating women's teams, not necessarily promoting a "we are a team sport" mentality. Every program that is catching heat over Title IX, etc. just needs to start a women's team, although I know that is easier said than done, and you will make everyone happy.

We must keep in mind that most kids gravitate to wrestling because of the individual aspects. They are tired of being on a team with individuals and variables that they cannot control. They are tired of losing because someone else didn't do their job. They are tired of being selected or not selected because of subjectivity. They are tired of not being recognized and not getting credit for their efforts. ALMOST ALL KIDS COME TO WRESTLING BECAUSE IT IS AN INDIVIDUAL SPORT, it always has been, since the Dawn of Humanity. Who are we to change that?

I remember way back to my first head coaching job and how excited I was that my Dad, a fifty year D1 recruiter starting with Roderick, was going to come to my practice and tell me what a great job I was doing. I had a great practice, it was awesome. I was going to get rave reviews, I couldn't wait to hear the great news and how proud my dad was. So I thought. Boy was I a rookie. He told me I was working hard, gave great effort and had good intent but my program was broken. He told me two things specifically, "you work out with the kids way too much when you should be coaching them" and "you focus way too much on the team concept and not enough on the individuals". I was sure he was wrong. I was sure that the "whole was indeed greater than the sum of the parts" I said, "Dad if the team does well, the individuals will succeed", I was sure I was right. He said "Son, if the individuals succeed, the team will take care of itself". "Now quit being selfish and take care of the individuals that have given their lives to you."

Yes, we as coaches heavily promote the team concept and want to win duals because when the team "wins", we "win". We are also told sometimes that is our job and it seems natural. As a side note, another reason we promote the whole team concept is because coaching a team is much easier, many can do that. Sometimes you do it and you don't even realize it. Like I said, it comes naturally. Coaching individuals is very difficult. It is easy to put together a game plan to elevate a team. It is much more difficult to put together individual game plans to elevate all the individuals. For me it was always much easier "coaching" a team. It was much more difficult "coaching" individuals. This is the test of a great high school coach. College coaches have solved the problem by having a bunch of different sized graduate assistants. We don't have that luxury in high school, at least at most schools. And the truth is we really do win when individuals win and the team doesn't but it just doesn't feel like it and it is certainly not perceived that way by the public. But remember, it is perceived that way by that kid and his parents.

Sounds good anyway.

X, you have got to quit drinking those 5 hour energy drinks............The Epic of Gilgamesh? WTH is that? I must have missed school that day.....

Now that I'm done hanging sh*t on you, it was a good post. One of the few camps I went to as a youngster, was one of Myron Rodericks camps. I still remember him showing the "gotcha" move on one of his assistants............We couldn't get away with that today.

I concur with the young Mr. Eck. This is probably X's best post. BTW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh They don't teach that stuff in Andale on any day! Epic of Gilgamesh is an epic poem from Mesopotamia and is among the earliest known works of literature.

I too went to Roderick's Wrestling Camp. He called that move the "ROTATOR". He also offered a tuition refund to anyone that could take him down. Everyone always pulled his comb over down. Good stuff. I have lots of good stories from my trips to Stillwater!

Jack and Jill was about all the "fine arts" we wanted , or needed, at Andale..............

I'm glad you hung some s... on me doug747, I deserved it although I have seen a lot of posts over the years much longer. I was actually hoping for more s... though. I was really hoping for some controversy over my post but no takers. I guess that I am just not as informative, interesting or engaging as Will.

As for the 5 hour energy drink thing, no chance of that, that is just good old fashioned caffeine in coffee which also is my #1 vice I might add. Nothing new there, just basically an everyday thing for me, wired and strung out from sun up to sun down.

Now as for the Epic of Gilgamesh that you hadn't heard of, I completely understand. If I learned about that in school, I don't remember or I wasn't paying attention when they went over it. I didn't know about that until after I became a coach and I have rode that ever since.



I don't necessarily think its my best post Will but I thought it was pretty good. It was definitely honest and accurate.

I too was raised on the Roderick camp as you two might imagine. Growing up in Stillwater, you didn't have a choice if you were a wrestler. I can remember some epic matches in practice between Roderick and Dave Martin current OState Admin and past D1 champ. Roderick's son and Chesbro's son were team mates of mine at Stillwater High. The comb over definitely brings back memories. My dad has one of those too. I thought about it also but decided that wasn't for me and just shaved the horseshoe off.

It really was an outstanding post. Very well said!!!

Well Said X. Last year I had a similar situation with my son. In a 6 team dual, my son was asked to wrestle up a weight on the last match of the day. He said he really didn't want to. He asked what I thought, I said he should look at it as an opportunity. The wrestler was on the same team as a 2 time state champ, when their coach said to our coach, "sure we will go up and wrestle that weight." Their coach asked, "Are you sure? This kid gives the champ all he can handle in practice." We pinned the kid in the second period. OPPORTUNITY. I think it just depends on the situation.

I think there's a big difference from moving around for a duel here and a duel there but to ask a kid who easily makes 170 or could even do 160 to fill spots at either 182 or 195 just doesn't seem like the wrestlers best interest are being considered.
In my opinion that's a lot of weight and size to give!
But we have been informed that we will be wrestling 182 for duels and 170 for some tournaments.

Seems like you guys have a solid kid at 170 already. Your boy wrestling 160 sounds like the better solution to me. In a dual your boy could wrestle 160 or 170 and the 170 lber could go 170 or 182. Maybe I'm way off as I do not know the team or other kids around.

Why does your boy have to be the one when others can do the same?

Kinda sounds like the real questions is "team player" or not?