I posted this under another topic a couple of days ago. Want to get it to the forfront for comment so reposting it under its own topic.

Wrestling community, especially 4A folks, have been beating a dead horse for years on combining 6A and 5A--supposedly unfair odds for 4A and 321A wrestlers-1 in 4- relative to 1 in 2 5A and 6A wrestlers- to get to state. Now someone advocates, best I can tell, to cut the number of 5A and 6A schools INVITED to attend a regional---or reduce the number of 5a and 6A regionals to 2--or recuce the number of 5a and 6A wrestlers at state to 8 per weight class.

Let me propose a change I have not seen on this forum. Revise 6A-5A-4A classes (for wrestliung only) to 48 schools in each class. Combine the largest 16 5A schools with the 32 6A schools for a new 48 school 6A wrestling class; combine the remaining 16 smallest 5A schools with the largest 32 4A schools for a new 48 school 5A class; combine the smallest 32 4A schools with the 16 largest 3A schools for a new 48 school 4A class. I think these 3 classes each with 48 schools provides for a better, more equitable split by enrollment numbers. Do not think taking the 16 largest 3A schools to 4A materially affects the 321A State.

Hold four 12 team regionals in each class, with 16 place brackets in each 6A, 5A, and 4A class. You would have to have 4 opens/byes in all opening rounds in each regional---happens in many 5A and 6A regional already. As for seeding at regionals--seed the top 4 in each weight-seed the remaing 8 entrants by a draw. Also, seriously consider haveing the 1, 2, 3, 4 top seeds have to wrestle the opening round. In each weight class place 2 opens/byes in the middle brackets of the top half, and place 2 opens/byes in the middle brackets of the bottom half. In this seeding system the top 4 seeds all would have an open round match. Have read complaints that top seeds getting opening round byes robs team points from the school of the top seeded wrestlers????? true or not??

The three 48 school classes levels the playing field and evens the odds on getting to State--at least in the three classes--does not address any inequity in 321A. If we are going to do something, it will have to be unique or KSHSAA won't consider it.

Does this make sense? Think about it!! Comments!!

This is definitely a good proposal worth considering.

However, the KSHSAA will make a classifications change based on whether or not it is a good move for all sports, not just wrestling.

I believe there have been some classification discussions and private school discussions the last couple years with the KSHSAA, but I am not sure what, if anything, has come of it...??

Nothing has happened. Discussion relative on private/parochial schools was a volatile subject.

Think a wrestling only classsification change may be sold to the KSHSAA. They know there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the current class breakouts of 32, 32, 64, all others. Wrestling, a sport of individuals, is the most flexible and only sport that could accomodate a classification and a bracketing systtem change. Team sports: FB, BB, VB, baseball needs a classification scheme divisable by 2, 4, 8, and 16 to simplify and standardize state level bracketing, regionals, state qualification--i.e., no opens/byes in the bracketing.

48 school classes for 6A, 5A, and 4A addresses and solves a lot of issues. Think it would work!!

I like the idea. But..

1 problem - we would be taking the 16 biggest 321A schools out of that division. 321A to me is weakest class and this makes it worse.

Proposal:
Instead of going to 16 schools from one class to another. Just Evenly distribute the schools in 456A currently to make the 3 classes. Leave 321A alone.

-School population is an issue but people would just have to accept it or this would not work.

-you still need 4 classes. We would be taking away too many opportunities for high school kids if we went to 3 classes.

Private School Discussion:
Let's drop this as fast as possible. The worst thing the state could do is make a private school class.

I love the idea, but it has to work with all the other sports. 4a is such a mismatch every year. There is no way a small 4a will compete with a big 4a in football untill they change it. I think that just need to have 4a Div. 1 and 4a Div. 2.

Combing 128 654A schools into three 42 1/3 school classes presents real difficulties in bracketing.

If I have read the KSHSAA Classes correctly, the 16 largest 3A schools all have enrollments above 200 students--the remaining 47 3A schools less than 200 students. 200 seems to be a natural break point. But, don't know much about 321A wrestling so can't really comment on how it would effect their state tournament. If 48 school scheme adopted, as you said, folks out west would just have to accept it. Also, many of the 3A schools that would be reclassed to 4A, in the last 10-15 years were forced down to 3A from 4A by the construction of new, bigger HSs. They had/have a tradition of competing in 4A.

As much as it pains me to ever agree with Contrarian, his idea does have alot of merit. On any proposal remember, it's does not have to be the same as other sports. For example there is a 2a only basketball champion. A 8-man football champion. That does not change the overall classes of KSHSAA. Just gives the proper state series for each event.

I personally don't see why there cannot just be 1 state tournament for wrestling. Do whatever qualifying is needed and then crown one Kansas State champion. Short of that, Contrarian's ideas makes alot of sense, although I agree 3/2/1 is already not very deep, although there are some great individuals. Pulling schools would make it too weak compared to others.

Just for conversation. How about 1 state individual tournament with no team scores(or keep them if you wish), then a dual state split into classes like they are now. I know KSHSAA has pushed back on that for years, but Oklahoma pulls it off as do some other states. It can be done.

Good luck to all in the next two weeks!!!

Hard for me to see where the dissatisfaction with current classifications comes from. I think some of you are looking at the numbers all wrong.

Perspective -
6A has over 50,000 students to pick thier state champ from.
5A has over 30,000 students to pick thier state champ from.
4A has LESS than 30,000 students to pick thier state champ...

Who has a easier road?

Grand State would be good. Expense is a non issue. I am not alone in saying that "I would personally pay for the building as long as I get a cut of the gate".

Have kids wrestle pigtail matches at Regional. It would just be one or two pigtail per regional.
or
Drop a few more teams to 321A until the brackets make sense.

Why couldn't you just combine 5A and 6A?

You could but what would be the point? Again, 5A and 6A already make up the classes with the largest pool of students!

Oh man, not that again.
Have you not been keeping up?
Please see Badbo's comments earlier in season with regard to this or just look at Chief's rankings. 8 of the top 10 teams in the state are 5A and 6A. Earlier it was 9 but Hayes slipped out. 2 of the top 10 are 4A, 3A has 0. Plus if you look at the ranked kids you would see similar statistics. So obviously right now the quality is in 5A and 6A while 4A and 3A have the quantity as always, with 4A having both as usual. How would combining 5A and 6A help? It would just make it tougher than it already is. A combined 5A/6A would be much tougher than 4A currently is. If I were very interested in winning state, I would much rather go thru quantity than superior quality so the whole 2 day regional thing with bigger brackets is junk.



Great post and perspective.
I totally agree with the unwarranted dissatisfaction comment.
When my son was a freshman and he was in 6A, he had to beat a ranked kid just to make varisty. The next year when my son went up in weight, that kid who was JV the year before won state.
Just one example I know that spins it for 6A.

Why not just leave it alone, It has worked for years just fine.

Fine except we could use that Grand State thing. Tired of the whining about rankings. Lets take it to the mat and see how tough your favorite class is!

JUst did a finger drill with the KSHSAA Classification list to create three 48 school classes. Shuffled 16 5A schools to 6A, shuffled 32 4A schools to 5A, shuffled 16 3A schools to 4A.

Interesting numbers
6A goes from a current enrollment Range of 2308-1289 (a spread of 1019 students) to a 48 school range of 2308-981 (a spread 1327 students ). But who cares, they can absorb it.
KIDDING!!!

5A goes from a curent enrollment range of 1281-720 (a spread of 561 students) to a 48 school range of 980-434 (a spread of 546 students). Not much difference but picking up the 4A schools should even out the competition--help fill th regional brackets.

4A goes from a current 64 school enrollment range of 717-258 (a spread of 459 students) to a 48 school range of 428-234 students (a spread of 194 students). Issue here may be does it rob all of the meat/competitiveness out of 4A, and are would it shift empty bRACKETS FROM 5A TO 4a? 4A folks will have to comment on that.

Did not do anything to 3A except rob their biggest 16 schools for 4A. How that would affect 321A State is their call.

I think this is doable for all 4 classes. Makes 6A and 5A competitive up and down the school list--evens the chances to qualify for state 6a and 5A relative to 4A--a long term legitimate bitch by 4A folks--maybe a bitch also by the 321A folks. Keeps a 4 class/4 state tournament schemme, keeps the state tournaments at 16 man brackets, keeps the State tournaments at a manageable size for a 2 day tournament, and perhaps keeps everything at a manageable size that you could put 654A back into one facility.

Need to drop a lot of wishful proposals (grand state, dual state, combine 6a and 5A, etc) and get behind something that has a chance of being sold to 1) School administrators and 2) to KSHSAA.

If can't get together need to just sit back and continue to bitch! Hasppens every year around State Tournament time.

THERE IS A REASON CAPTAINS ARE NOT GENERALS!!

Nice effort Contrarian.
Looks good although I sure wouldn't vote for it. Certainly would make 3A weaker than it already is, with all due respect, as lazyman_1 already indicated. Just looking at the ranges provided alone, 1327 for 6A, 546 for 5A and 194 for 4A, I wouldn't vote for it. How are those ranges fair?
We just need to leave it the way it is for the reasons already provided by D.W., wrestle nuts, X, etc. and the stats provided by Chief and Badbo.
Also check the other threads for info about 4A regionals with 8, 9, 10, 11 man brackets. The whole 3A/4A is tougher than 5A/6A thing because they have these monster 2 day tournaments with monster 16 man brackets thing is junk.
I could see evenly distributing 6A, 5A and 4A while leaving 3A as is but again the ranges even with that wouldn't be fair, although I know life is not fair and I know 3A/4A people think they have been getting the short end of the fair stick for some time and that they are due for some pay back although I don't necessarily agree with that.
Grand State is cool and everything but I would rather see a Dual State than a Grand State and I don't think that we would ever get both.
Although one class with one champ would be the easiest way to solve the problem, we would then have a bigger problem promoting our sport because there would be fewer opportunities for success and more people would be less likely to go out and that would hurt our sport. I don't think that we really want that do we?

48, 48, 48, would be good for all the sports. Wrestling is the one sport where the small schools can compete with the big schools. But football is a different story. If I have 30 out and you have 80 we are screwed most years. Period! Let me tell you there are many years that we have every kid out that should be out, and we are still at a huge disadvantage.

Hey Will where are you man? They mentioned private schools in here. Weigh in. Liven things up. lol I have posted more on here today than I have in my life. My meds must be off. I may even wear suspenders tomorrow at the regional. Hell I could bring back the Wayne Whiting days and wear shorts with my suspenders.

I would propose that someone in the wrestling community start a grand state. The metro has the Metro Classic, southeast Kansas has the Army Strong Mo/Kan, The KWCA has the Big/Small school dual, etc. Why couldnt, for instance, Neuman host Grand State. 4 man bracket, single elimination, 42 matches the Saturday after the state tournament. All it takes is a couple of guys willing to get it going. I always hear what we could do, and what we should do, and how neat it would be- Start it up.