Thats ok, our pleasure, but all I really do is roll out the mats. The heavy lifting has been done by others in the Metro meet. Troy, Ulmer, the Buntin's, they have really made the Metro what it is today. The rest of us kind of tag along. Tell Jacob good luck.

Obviously, I am huge fan of both the Jayhawks and wrestling. I have to say though, i think you got lucky with the OSU fan. I had the opportunity to tour the OSU athletics facilities a few years ago. My tour guide happened to be a huge wrestling fan, and her & I discussed wrestling at OSU (and the lack of at KU). She had been involved with the program for several years, and said they were lucky to get the lower concourse of Gallagher-Iba full for the Bedlam duels. I went to the student union in the hope of picking up some OSU wrestling gear, and when I asked the girl behind the counter where I could find some, she stared blankly back at me. In conclusion, I was disappointed in the lack of overall support for the program at OSU. Sure, they have a dedicated fan base, but that base is a minority.

I know several wrestlers who attended KU. I can tell you that if Title IX would allow for it, I believe KU would have a wrestling program. Until the rules change I do not anticipate many Division I schools adding wrestling programs.

jayhawk pride, we would like to see the same type of overall campus enthusiam for college wrestling as they show for football at all colleges even at wrestling giants like Iowa University and Oklahoma State University. I do think that Iowa might get better attendance at duals than what she described for OSU. Everyone may not agree with me but I think college wrestling could make some small changes that would help build a greater amount of fan interest. I posted some ideas that Cael Sanderson had on that on his website a few years ago. I may go back and find that article and post it on this topic. Was the sales lady just unaware of where the wrestling gear items were in the store or did the store not have any at all? It would be surprising to me if a OSU student union shop did not have any OSU wrestling T-shirts, sweaters or something.

Also your comment on KU and Title IX. I would not count on that. In my opinion KU's athletic department if they had their way would concentrate all their resources on two programs if they could get away with it. Those two programs are men's basketball and football. KU already fields one of the smallest number of NCAA Division I competitive athletic teams for an institution that brings in the money it does. Compare the number of programs at KU to Ohio State. You will see what talking about. I really do not think we can blame Title IX on KU's lack of a wrestling program. In this post it has been shown that KU did not have a college wrestling program from 1935 to 1963 and dropped their final college wrestling program in 1967. Title IX was not in force during most of those just mentioned years that KU did not field a NCAA college wrestling program. In my opinion KU like most colleges without college wrestling program just uses Title IX as an excuse not to have a college wrestling program and other non revenue sports. I think it is all about money generating sports at KU and other colleges as far as what teams they are willing to include in their athletic program and budget. That is why I believe the wrestling communities in Kansas and across the nation have to do more financially to support college wrestling or we will lose it.

Well, I have been around OSU wrestling my entire life and I am here to tell you there are a boatload of OSU wrestling fans in Oklahoma. Go the NCAA's when they are in Penn sometimes and look at all those orange shirts. Are you kidding me? You are gauging the interest in OSU wrestling by some little coed in the book store. Not really the most reliable of tests there. Go online, you can spend your entire net worth on OSU wrestling gear. Thats nonsense. My wife almost lost her arm there once when her purse hooked on the door and the crowd was pushing in so hard for the Big 8 tourney when it was the old Big 8. If you didn't get there early you would be in a line a quarter of a mile wide. Been like that for a while down there. Your contact girl must have missed it.

As for KU and Title IX, they could care less. They just didn't have any intrest in wrestling of any kind. Every single administrator then were ex-basketball coaches and they would laugh at you even now if you tried to get them to talk to you about it. I know, I tried, and they look at you like you have one eye in the middle of your forehead. There is zero interest in wrestling at KU. I gave up on that idea a long time ago. Wichita State, maybe, KSU when hell freezes over, but that is still better odds than KU having it. The day the earth comes to an end, there will still be big crowds of roughneck Okies going to the Bedlam.

hahah right across the street from where that little gal told you they didn't like wrestling sits the National Wrestling Hall of Fame!! You could have walked across the street, shook hands with LeRoy Smith, and bought all the wrestling gear you wanted. I bet that little princess never heard of him either but about 99% of everyone else in Oklahoma has and they know where he works every day. Are you kidding me?????

There was no wrestling gear in the student union. I would have spent an entire day at the Wrestling Hall of Fame, but I was there for a conference, so I did not have the time.

You can't use Ohio State as an example. OSU has an enrollment of 38,000 undergrads compared to KU's 23,00, is the flagship institution of a state that has almost 4 times the population of Kansas, and is conference that has the strongest wrestling tradition in Division 1. Comparing the Pokes & the Jayhawks is a much more accurate comparison:

Enrollment: KU-23,000, OSU-23,000
Men's Sports: KU-6, OSU-8
Women's Sports: KU-10, OSU-8
Total Sports: KU-16, OSU-16
Total Revenue (2008-2009): KU-$70 Million, OSU-$71 Million

So, KU offers a comparable amount of sports to OSU, and for all intents and purposes is the exact same school. OSU happened to have an excellent program builder in Ed Gallagher (who they named their arena after). KU happened to have an excellent program builder in Phog Allen (who they named their arena after).

Big 8 crowds at OSU wrestling were at record numbers, and have never reached that point since it dissolved in 1996. My contact at OSU was an employee of the athletic department, and was a huge supporter of the wrestling program. I was thrilled to be on a Division I campus that had wrestling, but out of the 30-40 OSU students I met, I did not find a single wrestling fan. I do not doubt that there is an excellent group of fans: students, alumni, and otherwise, but they are not in the droves they once were. I'm sure you see plenty of orange shirts at the NCAA's, I saw plenty of KU baseball shirts when I went to KU baseball games.

As for Title IX, I cannot guarantee that any school would adopt wrestling as a sport if they did not have to maintain scholarship balance. I would say wrestling would be one of the first logical choices for KU, or any mid-western university. Sheahon Zenger, the current AD at KU, is a football guy (got his start under Bill Snyder at KSU). He's originally from Hays, and played football at Fort Hays and Mid-American Nazarene. I have no doubt, that if given the opportunity and the means to do so, he would fully investigate the possibility of a wrestling program at KU.

jayhawk pride

You know you will not get a lot of people on this forum who are going to agree with your trust in the future prospects of a KU sport administrator making a move towards adding wrestling anytime soon. If they were going to add men's teams I think most sports people believe that it would be tennis or swimming/diving which I believe were more recently dropped at KU. I and probably everyone else on this forum hopes you are correct that the new KU AD would consider adding wrestling but I do not think many people here believe that is a remote possibility. I see only two possible ways the first I mentioned already which would be if KU eventually joined the Big 10 conference and that invitation was made only if they would add wrestling. I think there is an outside chance of this if the Big 12 conference eventually breaks up. The second possibility would be a legislative act by the Kansas state legislative body. I doubt that has any chance.

Also I am not sure where you are getting your numbers on the KU men athletic teams. The KU website only lists six (not 8) men teams (baseball, basketball, cross country, football, golf, track & field). Your numbers do match for KU women and Okla State University both men and women. So KU has two less men teams than Oklahoma State which shows all the teams you listed for KU plus tennis and wrestling.

And I do think you can compare to Ohio State by using percentage comparisons. KU's revenue in 6/30/11 reporting year with the US Dept of Education as reported by EADA was the 70 million that you reported while Ohio State was $131.816 million. Percentage wise that means KU was a little over 53% of Ohio State revenue. In the EADA report all running sports are combined so KU was showing 5 men sports and Ohio State 15 men's sports. KU's men total should be eight teams based on Ohio State's 15 men's sports so by revenue pct KU is 3 men's sport shy of Ohio State. Even if you go by enrollment pct % which the EADA report showed KU at 18,137 47.35% of Ohio State's 38,300 KU still should have 7 mens teams based on Ohio State's 15 so again KU is two men's team short based on Ohio State enrollment just like they are two men's teams short of Oklahoma State which is showing the equivalent $70 million of revenue on the 6/30/11 EADA report and Oklahoma State even shows less students at 15,736.

Remember KU did not have any college wrestling program from 1934 to 1964 and then had one for only three years to drop it again in 1967, 45 YEARS AGO! I just saw where Title IX as it is today was passed on June 23, 1972 so KU dropped wrestling well before that date. Does this really impress you as a sports department that really wants to add wrestling if only Title IX would allow it? If it does, I am pretty sure you would be in a pretty small miniority with that opinion on this forum.

Again I like everyone in the Kansas wrestling community would love to see KU add a NCAA college wrestling program. But you got to be realistic, they simply will not do it unless forced to. At least that is my opinion. I would think most people on this forum would probably agree with that.

Vince, thanks for the fact checking. I was indeed incorrect on some of the numbers. I didn't look at the EADA numbers, partially because I'm lazy and wikipedia was so much closer. I could go into a song and dance about the linearity of the scale in comparing the numbers, but I'll cede that point. KU is lacking in overall athletics on both sides.

I don't anticipate KU adding any sports in the near future, men's or women's. They are bringing in some serious dough right now; last I heard, plans are still on to build a new Olympic sports venue for the Kansas Relays (a great event I might add). With Title IX, they essentially have to add a women's sport for every men's sport, so if there was even strong support for a program on campus it would be a hard sell.

I wasn't insinuating that Zenger would make a push to add wrestling. I was just responding to the usual "KU only cares about basketball" comments. I will stand by my opinion that a western Kansas native would be in support of adding a wrestling program if it were viable. If I ever get the chance I'll ask him in person and then post his reply here, good or bad.

I can't speak to why KU dropped the wrestling program. I do know that K-State dropped wrestling in 1975 and no one ever seems to bring that up (I assume it was a Title IX issue). I just get tired of the perception that KU is somehow anti-wrestling.

hahaha when I say OSU, I am not talking about Ohio State. There is only one OSU and it is in Stillwater. You can be insulted all you want, but as a KU alum and a life long wrestling coach in this state, I know for a fact that they want nothing to do with wrestling in any form. Zenger was a high school basketball player and a football coach, he has no wrestling roots at all. I love KU as much as anyone but I am not blind to the fact that they don't care about anything but basketball there and they got rid of anyone that did.

I got a whole closet full of OSU (that is Oklahoma State) gear. I bought every single piece of it in Stillwater, Oklahoma. I don't need to have OSU explained to me, and certainly not by some tour guide co-ed.

K-State dropped wrestling before Title IX was even an idea. They lost $150,000 dollars worth of free western Kansas beef the next day and it still didn't bother them. We have been sabotaged by the roundballers and any other spin is just head in the sand revisionist history.

Heck Bryce Durbin, the original head of wrestling in Kansas and his stooge, Dick Brown that followed him were ex- college basketball coaches. Wrestling, in the state of Kansas, has been sabotaged at every turn by ex-basketball coaches and administrators. I was in on some of that junk with them and I know they laughed when they did most of it. KU and KSU should never be mentioned in the same breath with wrestling. They didn't get rid of it because of Title IX, they got rid of it because it didn't involve a round ball and a basket.

jayhawk pride,

Actually I admire your defense of your alma mater. I am a graduate of KU like you and Coach Westphal. I only went there my last two years after starting at KSU on a football scholarship. I am from Omaha and my Dad raised me on Nebraska football. It was pretty easy being a Nebraska football fan for the last five decades.

I also understand your hope that KU will one day add a wrestling team. I hope you can convince KU's new AD to do that. Perhaps you can use some of this information to convince him. I know I had no success with Perkins. If you convince Zenger I will take you and Coach Westphal out for a steak dinner for KU's first dual and I will pay for Zenger too if he wants to come along. I will let each of you bring one guest to the dinner. Deep down I think all of us on this forum hope that adding a college wrestling program will happen not only at KU but also at KSU and WSU. I extend that hope to the instititions of Pittsburg State, Emporia State, Washburn, Mid America Nazarene, Johnson County CC, Kansas City KS CC, etc. I would like someday to see our college wrestling scene in Kansas look like Iowa where they have 3 NCAA D-I teams and a multiple of other college wrestling teams. As a community we are going to have to work hard over the next years and decades to make that happen. We have to financially support it. That is why I am such a strong supporter of the Kansas College Wrestling Fund. I truly believe this is the vehicle that can help make college wrestling grow in Kansas, if we can get the Kansas wrestling community to fully commit to it.

To me these decisions ultimately come down to money. Does the program make money for the institution or how much of a financial drag is it on the institution? I really think it comes down to that a lot more than Title IX considerations. You state that Title IX is an obstacle for KU. I wonder. Look at Nebraska which is pretty comparable to KU on the latest EADA survey report as far as students. Nebraska shows 18,129 (men 9,774 women 8,355) to KU 18,137 (men 9,231 women 8,906). Now these EADA team numbers show Cross Country, Indoor Track and Outdoor Track as one team listed as All Track combined. Nebraska is showing 8 men teams and 11 women teams. 395 men athletes 258 women. KU is showing only 5 men teams and 9 women teams 277 men athletes and 287 women athletes. I am not a Title IX expert but by these numbers it appears that KU currently would have room to add another team for men right now without adding another women's team. Probably at least two men teams if you compare it to Nebraska current Title IX scenario.

Now here is the money comparison which I think really is the driving force in these athletic department. These numbers are also from the EADA survey reports of 6/30/11 reporting year. Nebraska has more revenue than KU at $83.680 million and expenses of $78.509 million for net profit of $5.170 million. KU is showing the exact same revenue and profit of $70.028 million for no net profit or loss. NU shows a $32.186 profit from men sports and -9.831 million loss from women's sports and a -17 million loss from unallocated revenue and expenses. KU currently shows a -$4 million loss from men sports and a -$11 million loss from women's with a $15 million profit from unallocated revenue and expenses. I am not sure exactly what unallocated revenue less expenses is but perhaps it is donations, corporate sponsorships or contributions from endowment funds. I really am not sure. I know KU was showing net profit on these reports a few years ago but I think the head coaching salaries is abnormally high for KU in that they have had to pay for two head football Mangino and Gill coaches and probably for the former AD Lew Perkins too. KU is showing more in men head coaching salaries than NU. KU men head coaching salaries $9.163 million, total men coaching salaries $12.5 million compared to NU at men head coaching $4.536 million and total men $8.9 million.

The EADA survey also shows a football and basketball breakdown. KU football is showing revenue at $9.525 and expenses at $13.096 million for about a -$3.5 million loss (which is again probably distorted by the fact they were paying for both Mangino and Gill). KU men's basketball has revenue of about $11.536 and expenses of $9.513 for about $2 million of profit. Nebraska football is showing $54.712 million in revenue and $20.17 of expenses for $24.6 million in net profit. NU men's basketball is even showing profit at $6.372 of revenue and $4.343 of expenses for about another $2 million in profit. KU's football is currently out of sync but these two sports are clearly the revenue and net profit generators at both of these schools. Wrestling will not generate this type of revenue or profit but it needs to not be as big of a financial burden on a college for institutions to offer it as a sport. The wrestling community has to generate more money for the colleges for them to add or keep wrestling programs. I believe endowment giving has to be an important source of that for wrestling. Realistically wrestling is not going to generate the type of TV revenue and corporate sports sponsorships that men's football and basketball are currently generating.

If you agree with me on this you will become part of the solution by becoming a Individual Donor and Advocate for the Kansas College Wrestling Fund. If you want to find out about let me know and I will direct you to Sean McCarthy or one of the other Board members of the Kansas College Wreslting Fund. If you just want to make a donation at this time here is an easy way you can do that today.

Join us in this fight by becoming a Donor to the Kansas College Wrestling Fund and working within your local wrestling communities to help this fund grow. Whatever amount ($5, $10, $50, $100, $120, $250, $500, $1,000 or more) will be important. Give whatever you can afford. It will be appreciated and it will help make college wrestling grow in Kansas.

Make checks payable: USA Wrestling – Kansas, Inc./KCWF, a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) entity.
Mail to: Mike Juby, Kansas College Wrestling Fund, 7208 Magnolia Way, Hutchinson, KS 67502

Vince,

A appreciate the depth of your research on the financial numbers. You're right that the current football situation at Kansas financially encumbers the athletic department. Interesting on the male to female ratios vs scholarship ratios. KU has more men at their school but gives less scholarships to men than woman. That in itself contradicts the objective of Title IX which is to have equal number of scholarship based on enrollment. Even if KU added a Men's sports team, wrestling would not be on top of the list under the current administration.

The Nebraska Athletic department should see more revenue in the long term from their Big 10 alignment and is a huge stabilizing factor for its wrestling team as the Big 10 will always support wrestling.

Maybe someday in this NCAA conference realignment mess, Kansas could end up in the Big 10. Kansas would almost be pressured to field a wrestling team as they would be the only team in the conference without it. Do you think this be enough to do it?

Also good to see the current revival of small college wrestling in Kansas. I think these small NAIA schools realize that they need to compete for students, and that providing an opportunity for wrestlers helps bring students to their institutions.

fan of the sport, very good feedback. As to this question:



Yes, this is what I have been suggesting as a possible scenario. If the Big 12 goes thru another head for the hills doomsday scenario like the last two that has ended up with Nebraska, Colorado, Texas A&M and Missouri leaving the conference, I could see the possibility of the Big Ten offering KU a spot due to their perennial nationally high ranked basketball team but I believe the Big Ten would probably insist in the offer that KU field a wrestling team along with the rest of the conference. Of course I would like to see them make that same offer to KSU but I think that would be less likely to happen. I think the Big Ten could find KU attractive if they would like to elevate their basketball footprint. I read an article last Fall that a Nebraska sportwriter wrote suggesting the Big 10 might eventually make that offer to KU but he did not mention anything about wrestling. To me it would make sense though that they would require KU to add wrestling in this scenario. So yes I really do see it as a possibility probably not a strong one but who would have thought two years ago that Nebraska, Colorado, Texas A&M and Missouri would be leaving the Big 12?




Yes, the NAIA colleges are competing for students and wrestling is helping them to bring in needed enrollment at these schools. Kansas has been the beneficiary with the addition of Baker University in 2009, Bethany College this year and Benedictine College next season in the Fall of 2012. This is great and I hope more like Ottawa and Mid American Nazarene join in this trend in the future. The costs after scholarships can still be very expensive and the program operating costs increase each year so any financial help we can give these programs along with D-II schools Fort Hays State and Newman and JCs Labette, Pratt, Neosho, NWKTC and Colby is very important so we can make attending these schools as affordable as possible for future wrestlers.

Coach Westfahl, I completely agree it's a shame how little he is/was known in Kinsley. I can assure you though that my brother and I knew about Pete and other great wrestlers like yourself that wrestled in Kinsley.

Jimmy Carlson