I know that people have complained about this before, but when will it start making a difference??

When spending the extra money to sign a kid up for a "national" tournament, you would think that it wouldn't be too much to ask to have officials that are competent enough to officiate at that level. I'm not saying they were all bad, but there were a few on the younger mats that were just terrible.

We are the first to tell our boys "Don't leave it up to the official. Go for the pin." However, when there are two good kids wrestling each other you expect a battle. And with that it is up to the official to make sure that they call a safe and fair match.

This stems from a match today at the Midwest Showdown where my son was wrestling in the consolation finals. Down 4-0 he hit a Granby/Peterson and held it for a two count. Ref either had no idea what a Granby/Peterson was and was too embarrassed to admit it or his ego got in the way of admitting he was wrong. We had our coaches, other parents/coaches from teams that didn't even have a dog in the fight, one of the scorekeeper's, and even the head official trying to explain this to this official. But ultimately it was "his call" and my son lost a match that should have been tied, and cost him the possible opportunity of challenging for 2nd (which the other kid went on to do and won.)

I would be more than happy to post the video and let anyone give an insight they may have.

Bottom line is if you are going to advertise your tournament as a "national" level tournament and want to bring in "national" level wrestlers, then return the favor and provide us with "national" level service.

love to see the video.

I have doubt that the head official thinks you were right and could not over-rule the call. Would love to see the video also.

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=936778541955&notif_t=video_processed

Let me know if you can't watch it there and I will put it on youtube and post that link.

He absolutely agreed and even took the mat official to the side to explain to him...told us and the mat ref that if the other kid felt "in danger and was fighting to get off his back" that it should have been our points (mat ref actually tried to give the other kid 2 points), but ultimately said without seeing it that it was "his call."

The Granby is hit around 5:20 in the match...

I would have gave the 2 reversal, but probably wouldn't have given back. The kid seemed to turn and not have exposure very quickly.

I could agree that the 2 back were questionable....but when asked by the head ref "Did he hit a Granby?" His response was "Yes" "Were back points awarded?" He said "Yes, for Green because Red did not initiate."

Does anyone consider the Midwest Showdown a "National" tournament?

Ive allways told my boy if he doesn't want the ref to decide it don't let the match be close enough for a bad call to decide the outcome.

And it did appear to be 2 with no backpoints. But a judgement call is just that a judgement call any arguing typically just gets you a disciplinary coaches warning.

I guess if you do not want the ref to decide the match, you should beat everyone by 10 or 15, that will take care of it... No, MatBurnsDad, she addressed this issue in her initial post.

I would just say that you need to remember when you are from Kansas and go across that state line, things change...they have different rules, and they know who is from out of state. Just a life lession.

A judgement call by a ref has no bearing on where you live John.

I agree. I've seen plenty of bad judgment calls all over the nation at every level.

They advertise it as a "National" tournament.

And I did address the issue of not leaving it up to the refs for a judgment call...we do teach that to our kids, but tough kids are gonna battle and that's all we can ask of them. It would just be nice to have officials that know what a Granby is...for him to try to award 2 nearfall to the other kid shows his lack of "judgment" in this situation.

officiating was not the best.Seems like there was many new reffs out there.The head reff was very good.Even in the older boys there was some not so good calls.Was some good kids there.Just getting the mat time with them makes up for the bad calls.

I would more than likely given the 2 for reversal, no back points but he counted and awarded to green, I don't see that.

I am the Director of the Midwest Showdown.... and I have Never called it a National tournament or registered it as a National Tournament.

Thank you to all those that attended. I feel and believe it was a great tournament with very tough competition!!

This is a quote from your thread regarding the Midwest Showdown:

"I would like to invite you to the 4th Annual Midwest Showdown Wrestling Tournament held in St. Joseph, Mo on January 5, 2013. This tournament has drawn from 7-9 states in the past and continues to grow every year."

The competition was top notch in his bracket and he definitely got some great matches. It is what it is...Over and done now, and today is a new day. Just hard to explain to a 10 year old why he got 4th when he did one of the moves he has been taught to do and the official did not recognize it, and lost at his chance of challenging back for 2nd (the only other kid he lost to was the kid who took first and he has beat the kid who got the original second in previous years).

I'm not going to turn this into a Ks Vs. Mo thing...that deserves a whole different thread. I just would like to know that when we are spending the extra money for the extra competition that we would have better than novice level officials.

I officiate high school but not kids tournaments. I've watched this video now a number to times and I've changed my mind back and forth on the call and so I can't fault the official who had to make the call in less than 5 seconds as time expired. Had time not expired, it would have played out. It was a close call.

The rule book shows this situation (pictures 21 and 22 on page 67). Here is the text under the photo:

Following a shoulder roll,there is a change of control when the wrestler who was in control is concerned about being pinned. There may be control when either leg is picked up. The referee should begin looking for a change of control as soon as either leg and one arm is trapped."


I don't think that the situation in the video ever got to the point contemplated by the rule book. It was close. Initially, I thought it could have been scored a reversal and 2 near fall points if criteria was met for two seconds but from the video it does not look like Red had control or that Green was in criteria for two seconds if control was established. As I've re-watched the video now several times and have no basis to criticize the official for determining that Red failed to establish control of Green at the end so as to justify a reversal.

Watch the video closely and pay attention to the lack of Red's ability to cinch up or lift Green's leg. Red switches his hand-hold on Green's leg and doesn't really have anything there, and Green continues to move and ends up rolling himself out of the situation as time expires. It was close, but I see this as reverse-in-progress that hadn't played out and at best it could have been scored as an escape as time expired. I would not have awarded the 2 NF for Green which is what was signaled at the end. Red, the defensive wrestler, was in the process of a reversal and exposing his back in that situation does not meet criteria.

I would not expect the "head official" or complaining parents to have had any influence in this call, but the two mat-side coaches might have been of some assistance. If they both agreed that a roll with two points was earned, I'm fairly certain the official would have agreed or could have been convinced to put the match into overtime. Green's coach could have come over and said "that was 2 and 2, the score's tied." I have, many times, had a coaches conference with both coaches to sort out a scoring issue and most of the time the coaches can resolve my confusion to their satisfaction. In this situation I don't think Green's coach would agree with any near-fall points though and it would be generous to agree that a reversal occurred.

While the roll looks pretty good, it was loose and not finished by the time expired because the leg of Green was not controlled by Red. Also, the more I review the film, it seems that even if control did change, near fall criteria was not met because Green appears to be rolled up off his back (hard to see b/c of the camera angle.)

I've watched the video a few times and while I initially thought the call was wrong, now I think it was a close, but correct call. Especially at this level of wrestling where often moves are not finished. Time just ran out here before the situation concluded.


Even if a mistake did occur, this one call doesn't mean this official is not a good official. This call does require some judgment and usually you wait to make sure there's really control and its not just slop. You see this fairly often in HS, but I don't know if its all that common in kids. Sometimes as an official you get surprised. This official was probably thinking the kid that had been in control most of the match was still in control and was just looking to make sure that it was a completed move.

Also, kids' officiating is some of the hardest officiating there is. Look at the mat size. The wrestlers and officials are on top of each other, with no safety edge. The normal "out of bounds" marks don't mean anything because the mats are divided into quarters or less and that has to be distracting. There's no room. The kids are squirmy and don't finish their moves. Sometimes it looks like a control situation, but the kid doesn't even know it, so how do you call it? And then there's the "clutter" of people around the mat making it all the more difficult to pay attention. It is a very difficult officiating assignment and my hat's off to those that will do it. I won't. Whatever it pays isn't half enough.

I can tell u from my experience at the showdown, we were involved in some crazy calls... judgments are like that. Trying to explain rule vs judgments fell on deaf ears. Refs we're quick to give warnings to coaches for questioning calls myself receiving a couple through the day and was politely warned on the stiff penalty doing so. But as far as I'm concerned it was just another weekend and not being a national or state qualifying tournament let it be and live to fight another day. Questioning calls for me are a vent to voice my frustration and disapproval but I've never won an argument and changed any calls. Overall tough matches, good venue and refs wearing striped shirt.

Nice profile pic Phippen!

I agree with Rford. I referee kids wrestling and you see it quite a bit of kids hitting moves and not really establishing control. I would have awarded 2 reversal, but no back points. I don't believe I would have decided it was control and began counting before time expired. I understand Martinmom, that it is frustrating when you think you get jobbed by the official. I believe he made the right call in a tough spot. Sorry for your son. But yelling at the official and then blasting him and the tourney on the internet is not the way to handle it, very unprofessional.