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 Definition of novice
#210972
01/06/13 05:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 220
Allie
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What is the definition of a novice wrestler?
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 Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Allie]
#210977
01/06/13 06:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,143
HEADUP
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USA Wrestling Kansas does not have a definition for a "novice wrestler". So Allie, you will more than likely see many different opinions, and scenarios that other feel SHOULD define a novice wrestler. Sadly it seems to happen every year, and every year more and more "novice" tournaments are held. Good Luck on your search, but more than likely you will just find that no one can really agree on "NOVICE WRESTLING".
I really haven't ever seen another sport that has a novice division. Not in little league baseball, not in flag football, not in basketball, not in swimming, nor soccer, etc. However I don't think a novice bracket is a bad thing in wrestling, but there should be guidelines.
"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: HEADUP]
#210982
01/06/13 07:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 455
hotrodder54
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If your questioning your own wrestlers being novice or not. I your not sure then you should move them up. Nobody benefits from being dominate all the time. Losing is learning.
I've seen wrestlers who never get used to losing end up hating wrestling because they dominated novice and hated opens because they lost matches.
That said this is what i was told the definition of novice
wrestler has no more than 2 years experience
wrestler has not taken 1st in more that 2 novice tournaments
wrestler has tried and never placed in an open wrestling BRACKET not round robin
Jon Trowbridge
Ive never had the fear of getting beat thats how most people lose.
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: hotrodder54]
#210988
01/06/13 08:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Beeson
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Definition: Wrestler who wrestles in a watered down bracket so Mom and Dad can brag about a medal.
Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Beeson]
#210989
01/06/13 09:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 220
Allie
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The reason I asked this question is because I noticed some younger kids that have been wrestling 3-5 years who are still wrestling as a novice. I don't agree with that.
I was told when my son was a first year wrestler to not put him in anymore novice tournaments as he got nothing from walking out on the mat and having no competition. So, we didn't do novice anymore. But, in reality, if a kid has been wrestling federation for 5 years and is STILL not dominating at the novice level someone needs to do some soul searching... most likely the parent that is forcing the kid to wrestle?
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Allie]
#210997
01/06/13 10:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 673
Teamroper
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If my boy is the 3X Novice State champion, that's bad.... Lol
Tracy Peterson
Buhler, KS
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Teamroper]
#211014
01/07/13 01:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
Donedidit
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Beeson, I think your definition is a bit rude and condescending towards new wrestlers. My kids are 5 and 7, I want them to learn to enjoy wrestling and just give it a try. My 7 yr olds first tournament was an open and it was really tough, we went to a novice next to show her that she can have some success and keep learning and improving, and it worked. She is excited to continue with wrestling and wants to work hard to learn. And at 5 yrs old I want to see my son ENJOY, SMILE, TRY. Expertise and drive will come later and my kids won't be burnt out. I think the parents bragging about NOT wrestling novice are the ones trying build a rep for themselves based on their kid competing. There are different levels of wrestlers, and different reasons for competing. Everyone should be allowed to sample the sport and grow at a pase they are comfortable with. If my kids never win, but keep trying and learning them I am proud of them. Trophies and medals turn to dust, but the lessons learned on the mat build character that will lead our kids to be confident in who they are in life. THAT is the true reward.
I know the plans I have for you. Plans to prosper, plans to not fail.
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Donedidit]
#211015
01/07/13 02:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 17
mcpdad
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Tracy, I couldn't believe it even when I had read it. Before you open your mouth. No one had to read it to me either!
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Donedidit]
#211016
01/07/13 02:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Beeson
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My definition was meant to be a bit rude and condescending. I have said it before and will continue to say that 6U are all novice. It is amazing how many kids will wrestle both Novice and Open at 6U. I am also amazed at how there will only be 6 kids in Open, but 25 in Novice. As a society, we look for the easy way out. I would say there could possibly be a place for Novice in 8U and 10U. The problem is that too many people abuse the Novice status. Not a fan of Novice...that's just how I feel.
Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Beeson]
#211018
01/07/13 02:37 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 6
Donedidit
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Why would you welcome new wrestling families into a sport by purposefully bashing what they do? That is a good way to kill a sport. I completely agree that people should move their wrestlers up and cause them to grow and be challenged. But it is not the fault of young wrestlers and their parents if there are no restrictions clearly outlined. Bash the poor management, bash the club directors that allow their kids to keep going to novice events, bash the clubs that charge entry yet don't hire decent officials ("hey teenage kid come blow this whistle", but don't be condescending to new families who are learning the ropes.
I know the plans I have for you. Plans to prosper, plans to not fail.
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Donedidit]
#211020
01/07/13 03:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Beeson
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I wasn't bashing new parents that are learning. I was bashing parents that were out Trophy Hunting. I was bashing Novice as a whole. I am pretty sure that 5,6, and 7 years olds are not reading this thread, so I am not bashing the kids either. The kids are just doing what the adults have them do. There are No Novice Football games,Novice baseball games or Novice b@$*%&ball games. Why should we have Novice Wrestling? So everybody feels like they did well? The only reason I see for Novice, is it is a good money maker. Some Momma's and Daddy's don't mind paying an extra $15 for a chance to win an easy medal. Crap, in Oklahoma where they have a standard for being novice, I have seen dad's forfeit a match so the child would not win and still be considered novice. RIDICULOUS!!!
Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Allie]
#211021
01/07/13 03:04 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 6
VacantOne
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They should just do away with novice. They allready have an A bracket and 2 or 3 B brackets at most tournaments. I agree with Beeson. My sons weight had 4 brackets this weekend in an open tournament. There's pleanty of room for new people and beginners in non state placer or state placer brackets. I think novice is all about the money you make for the novice tournaments.
Id totally get novice if all tournaments were double elimination but they aren't. Most have multiple round robin. Just my opinion though.
To awnser the original post a true Novice Imo should be a first or second year wrestler with ZERO first places in any Open tournament.
Last edited by MatBurnsDad; 01/07/13 03:24 AM.
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: VacantOne]
#211024
01/07/13 06:06 AM
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 347
Jeremy Roberts
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I rarely respond, but I wanted to get my two cents in on this discussion. My oldest son started wrestling this year and has some learning disabilities (if you want more info on my son just send me a message). We have currently entered him in two tournaments Paola Open and then the Olathe Novice he is currently 0-6 (been pinned all six times)both were round robins. I am glad he was able to get in round robins because it gets him mat time and he is enjoying it. With his learning disabilities I am not sure how long it will take him to compete at an open level so I think you have to look at each child, case by case. A guideline is great but sometimes you need to look further.
Since I took a few lines talking about my oldest I am going to do the same about my youngest (four year old). He has picked up on things very quickly, just from watching between me coaching, officiating and watching his brother. Therefore, next year if he still wants to start he will be more advanced than a child that has never been around the sport.
Last thing I want to put is in response to the parents "forcing" the child to wrestle incase my oldest never wins a match but wants to keep going we will never stop him. I had talked to my two younger boys (four and five) about wrestling but not the oldest because of his disabilities. This year he came to me and said he wanted to wrestle, I about fell over because I never thought he would want too. On the same point my middle son wants nothing to do with wrestling and I will not push him to the sport, and if at some point he decides he wants too its his call and my wife and I will support him either way.
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Donedidit]
#211098
01/08/13 02:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 372
shawnbudke
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Allie,
Last year I was asked to lead a committee for the state and try to develop a standard definition for novice. The idea was that the state could then adopt a standard definition. The committe had representatives from every district. We came up with about 5 options that were supposed to be presented to the districts and then taken to the state board. We could not gain consensus nor was there a lot of momentum to continue trying to define Novice so the issue was tabled. The state decided to leave the definition up to the tournament directors.
Here's what I personally learned from that process along with coaching for the past 10 years in KS...
1. I was not a big fan of Novice when we started seeing more Novice tournaments. I have changed my mind because I have seen it keep kids in wrestling until it finally "clicks" for them.
2. Some kids can legitimally be Novice for about 3-4 years depending on their skill set, their aggressiviness, maturity, etc. I have had kids legitemally wrestle novice for four years because they didn't even win matches in the pure novice meets. Then all of a sudden it clicked for them.
3. On the other hand, I have had kids that it "clicks" for them right away and don't wrestle Novice at all. Do we have folks that "trophy hunt"...yep. However, I think they are a small minority and I would hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of a very small population.
BLUF: As coaches and club directors we have a responsibility to monitor our our wrestlers and more importantly their parents expectations. This can cause some uncomfortable conversations but it is necessary for the good of the sport.
Just my 2 cents.
Shawn Budke
Bluff:
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Beeson]
#211104
01/08/13 04:08 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 292
master blaster
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Went looking on the oklahoma kids site but could not find thier rules or guide lines concerning novice! Would like to see what the okies consider novice?
Who run Bartertown!
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: master blaster]
#211107
01/08/13 04:20 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 69
Sig
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NOVICE - Any 1st or 2nd year wrestler who has not placed 1st or 2nd in any open tournament with 6 or more wrestlers in their bracket. The wrestler counts as 1. May not be a novice for more than two years. http://www.okseries.com/bylaws.php#novice
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: shawnbudke]
#211110
01/08/13 05:32 PM
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 162
John Taylor
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This is about as good as anyone can put it. Great thoughts Shawn! For those of you who don't like novice or want to do away with it, all that would do is help kill the sport of wrestling. Don't let the small majority of trophy seekers ruin a great way to keep young ones wrestling. Allie,
Last year I was asked to lead a committee for the state and try to develop a standard definition for novice. The idea was that the state could then adopt a standard definition. The committe had representatives from every district. We came up with about 5 options that were supposed to be presented to the districts and then taken to the state board. We could not gain consensus nor was there a lot of momentum to continue trying to define Novice so the issue was tabled. The state decided to leave the definition up to the tournament directors.
Here's what I personally learned from that process along with coaching for the past 10 years in KS...
1. I was not a big fan of Novice when we started seeing more Novice tournaments. I have changed my mind because I have seen it keep kids in wrestling until it finally "clicks" for them.
2. Some kids can legitimally be Novice for about 3-4 years depending on their skill set, their aggressiviness, maturity, etc. I have had kids legitemally wrestle novice for four years because they didn't even win matches in the pure novice meets. Then all of a sudden it clicked for them.
3. On the other hand, I have had kids that it "clicks" for them right away and don't wrestle Novice at all. Do we have folks that "trophy hunt"...yep. However, I think they are a small minority and I would hate to throw the baby out with the bathwater because of a very small population.
BLUF: As coaches and club directors we have a responsibility to monitor our our wrestlers and more importantly their parents expectations. This can cause some uncomfortable conversations but it is necessary for the good of the sport.
Just my 2 cents.
Shawn Budke
Bluff:
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: John Taylor]
#211114
01/08/13 06:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 2,916
sportsfan02
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I approach it from the opposite direction. Open wrestler = any time a parent or coach asks if the wrestler in question should be in the open or novice class, they ARE an Open wrestler. If you have to ask that question, then the answer is always OPEN class.
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: sportsfan02]
#211127
01/08/13 08:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,555
Beeson
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I approach it from the opposite direction. Open wrestler = any time a parent or coach asks if the wrestler in question should be in the open or novice class, they ARE an Open wrestler. If you have to ask that question, then the answer is always OPEN class. I agree 100%.
Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
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Re: Definition of novice
[Re: Beeson]
#211139
01/08/13 09:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 321
Hossus
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I do think we need to have Novice class mainly to keep the open tournaments unclogged with new kids who will be beat up at them.
The okies have even discussed changing their version of novice to only 1st year wrestlers period. This would solve most of the problems for us as well and could be easily tracked through wrestler USAW registration at the beginning of the season. This would still give new wrestlers the option to wrestle both open and novice.
If a kid got hurt during his first year and had to sit out say 75% of the season they could maybe petition for another year of Novice. I am sure some kids with Special needs would be able to do this as well.
Well, that's what I have to offer on the matter.
Fortune assists the daring.
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