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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Travis24] #215112 02/20/13 12:35 AM
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WillyM Offline
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I outlined in detail what I believe I saw in the video. A frame by frame description--or at least as fast as I could hit the pause/forward button. Looked at it probaly 10-15 times. I remain convinced that there was no foul, and certainly no flagrant violation. If you disagree than explain your analysis in the same detail as mine.

As for ref hating. Not me. Tough job. Don't know this ref's level of experienc---as a wrestler or as a ref. He initially did the right thing---stopped the action, talked to the second ref, and reversed the call. Should have been end of incident. Then he went to the score table, talked to someone, and did the seond reversal. Evidences 2 instances of indecision. Should never have talked to anyone other than the official scorer to insure the scorer knew there was no violation and that the match was to continue. Too many times over the years have seen refs go talk to coaches. Thats OK. But after a decision has been made, thats it. If coaches persist to argue, ref should issue a warning--as I do to my dogs--show the coach a simple hand with open palm up---"stay".

Last edited by WillyM; 02/20/13 12:39 AM.

Bill Mason Lansing
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: WillyM] #215121 02/20/13 01:38 AM
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Are we watching the same video? Seriously, are we?


Jamie Sauder
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: J. Sauder] #215125 02/20/13 01:48 AM
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Jamie,

Certainly you have to agree that a referee changing a call then changing it back, casts doubt on the correct ruling.


Eric Johnson


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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Chief Renegade] #215127 02/20/13 01:53 AM
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Isn't it about time to let this go? I mean its over and done with and nothing is going to change at this point. The young man has been disqualified for the state tournament and it will not be overturned.

At this point nothing is going to be gained by second guessing the official who made the call in accordance with the rules and his judgement.

I'd say its to the point of beating a dead horse now.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Chief Renegade] #215128 02/20/13 01:59 AM
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No, not really. The goal is to get the call right. A deliberate head butt (as opposed to accidental) really doesn't fit the description of USC. Now, a call reversal may not get you any style points as an official, but getting the call right is of the upmost importance. One wrestler head butted another on purpose which by rule is FM. The official in the end got the call right. The really bad part is that is sucks for everyone. A senior doesn't get to go to state because of a bad choice and a REALLY GOOD official gets to own a call forever. I have given FM before and I could probably remember every one of them. It's not an easy call, but hey, that's why officials are making the big bucks! Good news is that for 3 straight days the sun has come up. At least it has in Emporia! Good luck everyone this weekend. I will be in Wichita this weekend if anyone wants a piece of me! (just kidding)


Jamie Sauder
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: J. Sauder] #215132 02/20/13 02:13 AM
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"I'll be your huckleberry...."

"I have looked at the video almost frame by frame. I'll be darned if I can see any kind of violation. Think this was over acted and over analyized."

The referee didn't have that luxury. He had to make the call and he was in position, and made it immediately.


"The kid in blue approached his opponent in a crouch, clearly with both his arms extended. Appears to be reaching for his opponent's right arm with his left hand and arm. His head throughout the move was aimed below the opponents head."

That's true, until he takes a big step and launches himself off both feet, actually leaving his feet, head forward, into his opponents' face, leading with his head. That meets the definition of a head butt.

"The opponent pushed the head further down and the
main contact is in the vicinity of the upper chest/breast bone."



That was after the initial blow, in reaction to it. He was not able to deflect the initial blow because it came up like an upper-cut. The video shows the contact and the head snapping backwards upon contact.


"One poster said the wrestler's hands and arms were behind his back. Not so when he move forward. When the opponent pushed his head down the arms did naturally move back as he naturally tried to maintain his balance."

You have video sequence out of order. He starts out in a decent position, hands forward, but as he then takes a big step, drops his hands and lunges off his feet. The push comes after contact, not before. He lost his balance because he actually leaves his feet, lunging, and had given up his own balance to do so. Also, that "move" is not a wrestling move...he certainly wasn't taking a shot.


"Saw no blood, no opponent grabbing the his nose or holding his head, no looking for dilated eyes, and no first aid. Nothing!!---no flagrant misconduct---no unsportsmanship conduct."


The rule does not mention any of these as requirements for a head butt. You don't have to knock out your opponent to win ...that's a boxing rule.


If any bad conduct it may have been by the opponent who appears to unnecessarily complain of a violation. And if the Heights coaches argged for DQ, that should have been ignored by the refs. Ref has to bear a lot of blame for this incident. If he initially reversed his call after consult with the second ref, incident should have been over. Why go to the scoreres table or coaches-that would have insured an arguement. The second reversal was a very, very bad decision!!!

From what other posters are saying, the Heights' wrestler was saying "Let it go" so don't put it on him. The official must go to the table to talk to a coach, that is the rule. Reversing a call is allowed. Re-reversing a call is unusual, and if it happened, is a legitimate point and is bad mechanics. But leaving a bad call stand is worse. More officials need to make the right call, even if it comes late and requires a reversal.


"Hope this bad call is reversed and the kid gets his trip to the Sate Tournament."

This cannot happen and should not be allowed to happen. There is no rule that permits it, no appeal process that contemplates it, and no administrator with any character that would do it. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of judgment calls every year that affect high school sports and its just part of the sport. As I recall, the Packers lost a game this year on an interception call at the end of the game that no one in the United States thought was correct, but even though the NFL commissioner can do almost anything, that call was not reversed.

This headbutt call was made within the rules, you may disagree with it, you might think it could have been called something less, or ignored, or changed. But it was a headbutt. Maybe a slight one, maybe a poor one, maybe even an accidental one. But the lesson here is if you are behind by 10 points with a few seconds left in the finals, don't be leading with your head, be thinking with it.




Last edited by Rford; 02/20/13 03:35 AM.
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: J. Sauder] #215135 02/20/13 02:21 AM
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WillyM Offline
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Originally Posted By: J. Sauder
Are we watching the same video? Seriously, are we?


The video i watche is thw video listed several places in this topic. Here it is again: http://www.wibw.com/sports/headlines/5A-Regional-Wrestling-From-Seaman-191550751.html[

Don't know what you watched,seriously?


Last edited by WillyM; 02/20/13 02:21 AM.

Bill Mason Lansing
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Rford] #215136 02/20/13 02:27 AM
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Quote:
This headbutt call was made within the rules, you may disagree with it, you might think it could have been called something less, or ignored, or changed. But it was a headbutt. Maybe a slight one, maybe a poor one, maybe even an accidental one. But the lesson here is if you are behind by 10 points with a few seconds left in the finals, don't be leading with your head, be thinking with it.


I agree with this. It's regrettable that Wilson's high school career had to end in such a manner, but as I said in an earlier post, facing a 12-3 deficit with less than 5 seconds to go . . . don't do anything foolish such as he did.

He had 2nd wrapped up, and a ticket to State. Too bad.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Travis24] #215137 02/20/13 02:34 AM
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I saw the wrestler on top (ahead 3-0) with 6 seconds left in 3rd period bounce up and down on down wrestlers back several times as the down wrestler layed on his belly, until time ran out.As the wrestler laying there hurt, getting looked at by the trainers,he and the coach "high 5" each other. Tell me if my eyes deceived me. That is possible.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: mfe] #215139 02/20/13 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: mfe
I saw the wrestler on top (ahead 3-0) with 6 seconds left in 3rd period bounce up and down on down wrestlers back several times as the down wrestler layed on his belly, until time ran out.As the wrestler laying there hurt, getting looked at by the trainers,he and the coach "high 5" each other. Tell me if my eyes deceived me. That is possible.


That is what I saw. I think it should have been a flagrant, but they called it unsportsmanlike. There was definitely an intent to hurt the bottom wrestler.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Travis24] #215149 02/20/13 03:56 AM
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It does not matter that Spencer is recovering from severe injuries from the car wreck, it does not matter that he is a senior. His arms were clearly going forward, indicating a desire to take the shot, the contact was not made to the forehead as a headbutt would be intentionally given. What does matter is that this young man is deprived of a chance to go to state on a call that was reversed after the referee taking the time to talk to the opposing coaches. Spencer, you are in my prayers - I am a better person for having to know you. God Bless
Darin Denning

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: DDenning] #215151 02/20/13 04:04 AM
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I had a wrestler in the consolation semi finals at the st Mary's tourney in the early 90s get slammed with 3 secs left, he was hurt, the move was illegal but he was down by about 7 or eight points. The officials made the call and my wrestler was hurt pretty badly and could not contnue. The head official told me I should leave the table and forget the call, I just asked to apply the rule as written, my guy won and the other wrestler was eliminated.....I don't regret it at all, I feel for Spencer, but abide by the judgement call made....

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: klintdeere] #215160 02/20/13 05:30 AM
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I don't know if this is a positive thread anymore. A good kid was flagged and has to live with it. None of the posters have to. I'd hate for him or his family or anyone else have to google his name and this post comes up, following him for years. He's a young man and has a good life in front of him. Wrestling will not define him. He's a good smart tough kid with good family support.

I think it would be a good idea to delete this thread.

You can argue refs decisions on a different thread....or maybe in person this weekend.....where you have to use your name and don't have to hide behind your usawks.com call sign.


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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Paratroop] #215161 02/20/13 05:53 AM
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I don't hide


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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Paratroop] #215167 02/20/13 11:27 AM
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Dean Welsh Offline
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Originally Posted By: Paratroop
I don't know if this is a positive thread anymore. A good kid was flagged and has to live with it. None of the posters have to. I'd hate for him or his family or anyone else have to google his name and this post comes up, following him for years. He's a young man and has a good life in front of him. Wrestling will not define him. He's a good smart tough kid with good family support.

I think it would be a good idea to delete this thread.

You can argue refs decisions on a different thread....or maybe in person this weekend.....where you have to use your name and don't have to hide behind your usawks.com call sign.


Good point. Delete or edit out his name.

"Wrestler A lunged. Wrestler B got headbutted." Etc. Edit out the thread to the video. If the thread is edited that way people could still learn the important concepts of the post without drawing attention to the wrestler that DQ'd.


D. Dean Welsh, Junction City
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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Dean Welsh] #215170 02/20/13 12:09 PM
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WillyM Offline
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No sense to edit anything! What is out in the public is already out the door.

Question: Do we see what we see or do we see what we want to see??


Bill Mason Lansing
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: WillyM] #215172 02/20/13 12:24 PM
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Yes, but if it is edited or deleted . . . that way 10 years down the road when Wrestler X's kids google 'Daddy's' name . . . they wont pull up this thread. Just a thought.

If it stays as is . . . like someone else wisely posted on this thread previously . . . these things tend to work themselves out for good any way. Roman 8:28


D. Dean Welsh, Junction City
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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: WillyM] #215178 02/20/13 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: WillyM
Originally Posted By: J. Sauder
Are we watching the same video? Seriously, are we?


The video i watche is thw video listed several places in this topic. Here it is again: http://www.wibw.com/sports/headlines/5A-Regional-Wrestling-From-Seaman-191550751.html[

Don't know what you watched,seriously?

Glad you aren't a ref. Clearly contact with the head. Now if you want to debate if that is serious enough to not go to the state tournament thats another issue. My guess is this is an issue because of what the Seaman kid has fought back from and that he is a good kid and a senior.
Wonder if anybody would care if it was a sophmore or a kid nobody had ever heard of in a 3rd-4th place match? Ref's shouldn't factor that in. They should just make the call. He did its done, too bad it happened but probably not going to change.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: cps51] #215179 02/20/13 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: cps51
Originally Posted By: WillyM
Originally Posted By: J. Sauder
Are we watching the same video? Seriously, are we?


The video i watche is thw video listed several places in this topic. Here it is again: http://www.wibw.com/sports/headlines/5A-Regional-Wrestling-From-Seaman-191550751.html[

Don't know what you watched,seriously?

Ref's shouldn't factor that in. They should just make the call.


The main issue here is that the ref made the call, changed the call and then changed the call back due to influence from the opposing coach. (Who I respect by the way and know that he had not thought through the ramifications of Spencer's state tournament eligibility).


Eric Johnson


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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: cps51] #215180 02/20/13 12:43 PM
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All of you armchair refs that where not there need to not comment , the whole gym was stunned when they saw what Spencer did!!
He made a serious error and is responsible for his actions, no one else, not the refs or the opposing coaches!

Moderators please close this thread .

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