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Re: district wrestler count [Re: shawnbudke] #216989 03/12/13 07:52 PM
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John Taylor Offline
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COA2, sounds like the best course of action. I am not from Kansas and i know where i grew up they did something very similiar to this every year. One other thing they did was allocate spots for districts based on state results from the year before. The more kids you get that place the more slots you open for your district. COA2 sounds simple and like the easiset way to even things out! Great ideas Shawn


Originally Posted By: shawnbudke
Here are 2 ideas that do not require any boundary changes or re-districting....

My biggest assumption with these ideas is that the state wants to stay at a max of 16 wrestlers per weight class for the state tournament.

Having said that, here are my 2 potential Courses of Action....

COA 1: If a district has a weight class with less than 4 wrestlers then those slots should be given to another district that has more than 4 wrestlers. Example: If U10 125 only has 2 kids in it at the District 4 meet and District 1 has 5 kids and District 2 has 5 kids then those 2 districts would each get to take 5 kids to state. If only 1 slot is available then you prioritize to the District with the most participants.

COA2: Distribute the number of kids that qualify from a district based on district population. Similar to the way automatic NCAA births are given to conferences at the D1 level. Now the college methodology is a lot more complicated and we don't need to make it that hard. You could do a percentage by age group based on population. For example....
1. Every district gets at least 2 automatic births per weight class (unless there is only 1 kids in the weight class in that district).
2. The remaining 8 slots are given to districts based on the population size for that age group. If Dist. 1 had 200 10U, Dist 2 had 150 10U, Dist 3 had 100 10U, and Dist 4 had 50 10U then Dist 1 would get to take 5-6 kids per weight, Dist 2 would take 4-5 kids per weight, Dist 3 would take 3-4 kids per weight and Dist 4 would take 2-3 kids per weight. (I realize if I use the max numbers for each district that is greater than 16) I am just trying to show that we could have some flexibility in allocating the numbers based on populations. The actual numbers could be based on the popultions of age groups.

The advantage to these ideas is that they both maximize the ability to create 16 man brackets at state. They also do not disavantage kids just because they live in a large district.

I think COA 1 would be the easiest to implement but I don't think it really gets at the idea of fairness based on population. My personal preference is COA 2 because I think it breaks out the number of slots allocated more equitably based on population.

Just something to think about.

Shawn Budke

Re: district wrestler count [Re: shawnbudke] #216990 03/12/13 08:00 PM
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my3sons Offline
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Brett attacking D4 the way you made your statement is not how to get us to vote for a change. Is there a change needed, perhaps. It's no secret that our population is not as big as yours but geographically we are handicaped at times. These next three weekends we drive 2hrs for subs, 3hrs for dist. and 4.5 to state not everyone can afford that. Someone mentioned putting Smith, Osborne, Russell to the North, but what do you to D4 south. In some weights on given years ages and weights will vary. Would probably have to do a 3 year average and see what works. Dist. 4 always seems to get hammered on, but we have had some pretty darn good kids come out of this end of the state and they didn't take the easy route. Blake Arnberger

Last edited by my3sons; 03/12/13 08:18 PM.

Blake Arnberger
Re: district wrestler count [Re: my3sons] #216993 03/12/13 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: my3sons
Brett attacking D4 the way you made your statement is not how to get us to vote for a change. Is there a change needed, perhaps. It's no secret that our population is not as big as yours but geographically we are handicaped at times. These next three weekends we drive 2hrs for subs, 3hrs for dist. and 4.5 to state not everyone can afford that. Someone mentioned putting Smith, Osborne, Russell to the North, but what do you to D4 south. In some weights on given years ages and weights will vary. Would probably have to do a 3 year average and see what works. Dist. 4 always seems to get hammered on, but we have had some pretty darn good kids come out of this end of the state and they didn't take the easy route. Blake Arnberger

I believe one way to sell any district re-allignment is to couple it with remote weigh-ins for subs and district tournaments.

Re: district wrestler count [Re: sportsfan02] #216994 03/12/13 08:42 PM
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We don't even need subs for 14U and HS. I have done the data for the past six years.


Will Cokeley
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Re: district wrestler count [Re: Cokeley] #216995 03/12/13 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cokeley
We don't even need subs for 14U and HS. I have done the data for the past six years.

In D2 we don't need subs for any age group. Eliminating subs would serve to provide another precious date for clubs to host invitationals.

Re: district wrestler count [Re: sportsfan02] #216997 03/12/13 08:52 PM
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Hossus Offline
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Totally agree with last 2 posts. Man does this make so much sense. Such a waste of time and money putting on Subs when the numbers just don't justify it. Also maybe make season that much shorter and have an Easter free weekend.


Fortune assists the daring.
Re: district wrestler count [Re: Cokeley] #216998 03/12/13 09:13 PM
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my3sons Offline
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Amen brother, nice hair Will.

quote=Cokeley]We don't even need subs for 14U and HS. I have done the data for the past six years. [/quote]


Blake Arnberger
Re: district wrestler count [Re: my3sons] #217009 03/13/13 12:35 AM
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Hey Blake - I really was not trying to attack D4. Just stating that some of those kids walk into the state tournament while the bigger districts see good talent go to the wayside. I say we take the 5th place finishers from the other districts and have them travel to any district that does not have a full district bracket and have a tournament to qualify the kids into districts. We could do this on the Wednesday before Districts.......This way the 5th place guys at least get a shot of making the big show. And while we wait for Western Kansas to populate, we at least create full tough brackets in Topeka for state.

Again - not an assault on D-4. Just trying to level the playing field.

Bret

Re: district wrestler count [Re: Stoudman] #217010 03/13/13 12:36 AM
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Stoudman,

Don't hold your breath waiting for western Kansas to populate. LOL

Re: district wrestler count [Re: Jake Goldenstein] #217026 03/13/13 01:18 AM
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Hossus

You are right, we don't need subs for heavyweight. I would ask you to take a look at some of those smaller weights. Subs are definitely needed. Besides I am surprised you have your son wrestling with us local hicks and not taking him out of. State for the tough competition.....( your words from an earlier post)

Will
Check out my post on the 14U/HS thread. I think a laid out the strategy you explained as to how to end the kids season earlier and not have the high schoolers involved.

Shawn Budke

Re: district wrestler count [Re: shawnbudke] #217048 03/13/13 10:26 AM
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I think the COA1 plan would work the best stated by Shawn Budke. The kids wrestling in D4 and D3 which has the smaller populations should not be punished because of where they live. The same goes for the kids who wrestle in D1 and D2. The kids do not have a choice in where they live. As the system is set up now all kids suffer. The low population (D4 and D3) kids suffer because they do not get to wrestle full brackets and experience if you lose you are done for the year. The high population (D1 and D2) kids suffer because some good wrestlers get left at home. State tournament in theory is the best wrestlers against the best wrestlers. How can this be if there are open spots in the brackets? My son and daughter wrestle in D3. I think filling the open spots would be a step in the right direction.

Josh Parker

Re: district wrestler count [Re: shawnbudke] #217062 03/13/13 12:48 PM
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You can also hand pick wieghts in every dist. every year that has less talent then others. It happens at the high school level ever year someone didn't make the state tournament because of there regional is tougher then another. The state tournament is not the end of the season if you don't want it to be. There are other wrestling avenue's one can pick to continue on if one so chooses. Like I said there can be some tweaks to fix some loop holes but a different problem will arise the next year because somebodys son or daughter didn't make state. Blake


Blake Arnberger
Re: district wrestler count [Re: shawnbudke] #217065 03/13/13 01:08 PM
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THIS IS GOING TO CHANGE YEAR BY YEAR [NUMBER WISE]. IT IS JUST SOME WILL BE LUCKIER THAN MOST. IT IS WHAT IT IS. AS THE ECONOMY GOING IN THE TOILET AND MONEY GETIING TIGHTER YOU WILL PROBABLY SEE THE NUMBERS DROP EVEN MORE, OR MAYBE NEXT YEAR NUMBERS IN DISTRICTS WILL FLIP FLOP AND THEN WE WILL BE HAVING THIS ARGUMENT AND OR DISCUSSION AGAIN.


GOOD LUCK AND WRESTLE HARD

TONY MILLER

Re: district wrestler count [Re: reddog2853] #217076 03/13/13 02:58 PM
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Looking at some numbers there are 14 brackets that have 16 or less wrestlers. Out of those 14, 7 will not have to wrestle a match to make it to state.

8U
125 9 wrestlers

10U
52 14 wrestlers 12 will make it to state
150 16 wrestlers 14 will make it to state
170 8 wrestlers

12U
64 14 wrestlers 11 will make it to state
215 9 wrestlers
240 4 wrestlers

14U
75 4 wrestlers
80 8 wrestlers
85 15 wrestlers 12 will make it to state
265 16 wrestlers 14 will make it to state

HS
100 9 wrestlers
106 16 wrestlers 12 will make it to state
250 13 wrestlers 9 will make it to state

So there will be a total of 20 wrestlers staying at home that could be used to help fill brackets.
If you include the rest of the brackets it breaks down like this.

8U
110-4

10U
52-2
55-4
130-4
150-2

12U
64-3
190-2

14U
85-3
90-1
160-1
235-1
265-2

HS
106-4
113-4
132-1
250-1

Grand total of 39 who could help fill brackets.

Last edited by ath618; 03/13/13 05:23 PM.
Re: district wrestler count [Re: ath618] #217077 03/13/13 03:20 PM
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Copying from Budke:

Do we think there is any possibility of implementing COA2?

Great ideas Shawn! Gives us something to discuss at the seeding meeting!

COA2: Distribute the number of kids that qualify from a district based on district population. Similar to the way automatic NCAA births are given to conferences at the D1 level. Now the college methodology is a lot more complicated and we don't need to make it that hard. You could do a percentage by age group based on population. For example....
1. Every district gets at least 2 automatic births per weight class (unless there is only 1 kids in the weight class in that district).
2. The remaining 8 slots are given to districts based on the population size for that age group. If Dist. 1 had 200 10U, Dist 2 had 150 10U, Dist 3 had 100 10U, and Dist 4 had 50 10U then Dist 1 would get to take 5-6 kids per weight, Dist 2 would take 4-5 kids per weight, Dist 3 would take 3-4 kids per weight and Dist 4 would take 2-3 kids per weight. (I realize if I use the max numbers for each district that is greater than 16) I am just trying to show that we could have some flexibility in allocating the numbers based on populations. The actual numbers could be based on the popultions of age groups.

The advantage to these ideas is that they both maximize the ability to create 16 man brackets at state. They also do not disavantage kids just because they live in a large district.

Re: district wrestler count [Re: Stoudman] #217105 03/13/13 07:19 PM
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luellen Offline OP
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It seems to me that all the districts would have to be changed to solve this problem. Someone has to sit down & do the math. I am willing to help. Am I wrong in saying that this will take no more than 3 hours max? Is the problem getting people to vote for it? Has any one created a plan & offered it up for a vote?


Lazy hands make for poverty,
but diligent hands bring wealth.
Re: district wrestler count [Re: luellen] #217108 03/13/13 08:16 PM
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Will there be a strength of schedule component? - Just kidding

Re: district wrestler count [Re: smokeycabin] #217110 03/13/13 09:44 PM
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I have not done any research on those ideas I put out there. They were just a couple of ideas as I was reading the thread. It seems that the long pole in the tent the past few years is the idea of changing district boundaries. There are a lot of legitimate concerns with those ideas as well Asa lot of ideas on how to do it. I was trying to think of ways to maximize participation as well as not disadvantage the kids.
There are a variety of options within the COAs I presented and there is some tweaking that could be done. I am willing to work with anyone who wants to participate to put together a proposal. Just let me know.
Here is the only promise I can make. And guarantee....it doesn't matter what anyone comes up with, it won't please everyone.

Re: district wrestler count [Re: smokeycabin] #217111 03/13/13 10:12 PM
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Shawn,

Would you believe that there isn't much competition outside of the state either. We wanted to go to Preseason Nationals nobody signed up. Same with CO tournaments. Son wanted to do a Boy Scout event so we didn't go to USJOC which we prob would have won again. The numbers are down for HWTs this year at National Meets. We did kick-off, we had one match total against HS kid & lost 1-0, we did a dbl forfeit there with another kid that was 120lbs lighter than him. We wrestled a few other OK meets with HS fr/soph boys in them, then MS happened and we were basically begged to do that by the MS coach so he did it to be a part of the team. That cut us out of a lot of stuff for a month or so. We were able to do a grand total of 5 matches in MS of which none of them lasted more than 30 seconds. Would love to go back to do School Boy MS Duals as we were 7-0 there last year as 7th grader. But the weight is too low for us right now. Money has been a factor lately, but we still plan to do USAW Nationals and FR/GR season. Hoping that the state meet will give us some tough matches w/ HS kids. Looking forward to next year so we can do the whole "Rite of Passage" for the upcoming 8th graders in 14U.


Really don't matter for us about subs we pretty much walk to state. But really some districts could easily bypass the subs and be just fine. So what if there is 32 in the bracket you only get to take 4 in the end to state. It would just make seeding actually mean something.


Fortune assists the daring.
Re: district wrestler count [Re: Hossus] #217140 03/14/13 02:13 AM
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Why not just divide the districts laterally across the state rather than in quadrants, then everyone gets to drive, you get equal districts numbers wise (or as close as you can get) and then everything is fair.... smile


Alex R. Ryan
KSHSAA Official #15616
USAWKS Official #707
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