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Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Beeson] #217941 04/01/13 01:22 PM
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roughly Offline
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They ACTUALLY CALLED Stalling at State?! LOL! REEEALLY?! WHO Knew?! Uh Huh?! If you say so... SMH...

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Beeson] #217942 04/01/13 01:30 PM
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RichardDSalyer Offline
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Originally Posted By: Beeson
Keith Ashpole was the Head Official. In my opinion, the Head Official should be able to bring a crew of his choosing. The head official would be held accountable for the officials he would bring. I think this would make him want to bring only the best officials. If we are still worring about being fair, let the Districts send their top 2 officials and then the Head Official choose the rest.
Outstanding suggestion! Please email this suggestion to me and I will see to it this is submitted as a rules recommendation for the next rules committee meeting.

While on the subject of officials, I would like to thank all District II officials for an outstanding job and believe District II had the highest quality officiating crew at the tournament with District I very close behind and nipping at our heals.


Richard D. Salyer
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: RichardDSalyer] #217946 04/01/13 01:57 PM
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my3sons+1 Offline
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I'd like to hear some thoughts on the older lady from Atwood. We do not claim to know very much about the sport since our son has only been wrestling a couple or years but she seems to pretty biased against certain teams. Any thoughts?

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: my3sons+1] #217951 04/01/13 02:23 PM
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RichardDSalyer Offline
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Originally Posted By: my3sons+1
I'd like to hear some thoughts on the older lady from Atwood. We do not claim to know very much about the sport since our son has only been wrestling a couple or years but she seems to pretty biased against certain teams. Any thoughts?
As a member of the Executive Council I personally would find it to be a conflict of interest to have any member of my immediate family profit from the state tournament in any manner.


Richard D. Salyer
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: RichardDSalyer] #217954 04/01/13 02:39 PM
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I think it may be time for someone who has the time to start a permanent thread on the top 20-30 officials state wide (kind of like Chief's all-class wrestling list) where someone who has contacts all over the state can rank referees and point out who the good ones are. That way, the best referees can be rewarded and the people all over the state can see who they are dealing with at various tournaments. At state, I observed a call by a referee during a match I was coaching in which the referee called locking hands on one of my kids. I was not aware of the specifics of the rule as my kid was still in control but the other wrestler had faced him and he locked his hands around the other kid's belly from the front position. I was, however, familiar with the experience of the referee and his quality calls in the past. I simply questioned him as to whether he was sure about the rule and he politely explained that since he hadn't awarded an escape my wrestler couldn't lock hands around the belly even though he could ordinarily do so in a takedown situation. I thanked him for his explanation and told my wrestler in the future to realize he could not do it. The situation may have been different if it was a referee didn't have the same experience and quality as this referee. Anyway, I don't think this proposed forum should be used to necessarily bad mouth bad referees or referees who have a bad day. But it could be used to reward referees who exercise good reasoning, are up and coming stars (like Nathan Stanley, etc.) and maybe let some of the best referees who may develop a little attitude to let them know we are watching. By the way, I have experienced Billy (spoken of previously) as an excellent in-match referee and believe he is as talented as any referee out there. I'm sure the pressures of having coaches scream at you all day long all season long can wear one thin. Anybody want to take on a role such ranking the good and the up and coming referees without running off too many who have bad days or are moving up the learning curve?

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: rdfincher] #217959 04/01/13 03:37 PM
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Pretty bad officiating on almost all of the matches that I watched (not saying every ref was bad, just a select few). It seemed like the matches lasted 5 more minutes because there was always a coach at the table from a bad call. I agree on the topic of letting the head ref bring his/her selection of officials, instead of letting the State tournament be some of these refs first gig.

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Bad MaamaJamma] #217961 04/01/13 04:05 PM
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I have received several private messages indicating problems and support with the Head Official bringing his own crew. I believe it will pass at the State Body meeting and will submit it to Richard.

I was informed we had an official from Missouri at the tournament. Also that District 4 was told to only vote for 3 officials instead of 5. If either of these statement are incorrect please let me know. If they are correct this is even more reason to submit this to the State Body.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: rdfincher] #217962 04/01/13 04:09 PM
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I had previously mentioned a ranking system and actually have inquired into a website specifically designed so that coaches could have a log in id and be able to rank officials. (Must be Bronze Certified) We must have an avenue so that all can see an official's track record and their ability to do a job according to the level of competition... there are Novice tournaments for those that can't be consistant so they can improve.

I envision a ranking system simlar to what you see with Netflix. 1-5 stars along side of the referees picture and a link to their personal bio. Tournament directors would then be able to have a comprehensive list of officials, their past performance, experience level and as an added tool, their availability via a calendar in their bio.

Any website sharks out there that want to partner with me on this??

Disclaimer:

This idea is the sole property of myself and you can't steal it smile


Scott Walker


There are no losers in wrestling ...only winners & learners!
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Bad MaamaJamma] #217963 04/01/13 04:11 PM
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Why not have the officials from each district vote for each other? You keep your districts relevant that way and who knows the officials better than other officials? Just another alternative to what some perceive to be a problem.


Alex R. Ryan
KSHSAA Official #15616
USAWKS Official #707
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Bronco Wrestler] #217965 04/01/13 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Bronco Wrestler
Why not have the officials from each district vote for each other? You keep your districts relevant that way and who knows the officials better than other officials? Just another alternative to what some perceive to be a problem.
I can envision relatives voting for each other. If there is a District which has less skilled officials the rest of the state should not suffer as a result. The system today is flawed.


Richard D. Salyer
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: RichardDSalyer] #217967 04/01/13 05:57 PM
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Personally Richard I think all officials should be required to have background check just like a coach. They are paid to protect our kids. There is a suggestion for the state meeting.

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: RichardDSalyer] #217968 04/01/13 05:59 PM
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Richard,
Let me see if I am getting this correct. You are all for the head official to invite who he wants to the tournament, but not let district officials vote who should come because they may have a family memeber that is an official. We better not have a head official that has a relative that is certified either then, because there is a chance they may get asked to officiate and that is not fair since they are related to the head official.

Thanks,
Lance Geyer

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: RichardDSalyer] #217969 04/01/13 06:00 PM
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Are any of us ever 100% happy with the officials? I know I have been upset several times in the past 20 years with some of the best officials in the state! I don't care what anybody says, it is not an easy job. I officiate on Sundays sometimes after coaching a HS tournament all day Saturday not only to help my family get by financially but also because I enjoy it. I guarantee you this weekend I missed some calls. I can think of one with a rock creek kid where I should have given the take down quicker but I was waiting to make sure the other kid didn't suck him under because he had the rock creek kids leg. By that time the other kid had came to his feet and then I could not call two. The rock creek kid ended up winning thank goodness so I didn't SCREW him out of a match. Again, it isn't as easy as you might think it is! Coaches at the Kids Level make it even harder sometimes because the boundaries that HS coaches have don't seem to be there. We better be careful or we won't have any officials left. I know several High Quality HS officials who are hanging it up because of the way they are treated. With that said, I worked the HS weights and was very pleased with how professional the coaches and wrestlers were. Much better than last year. Special thanks to the Eldorado Coach? I believe. I had to reverse myself on a call that changed the outcome of a match and the coach could not have been more professional than he was. It was much appreciated by me. I know one thing for sure, officiating has made me a better head coach in the corner for my kids.

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Bronco Wrestler] #217970 04/01/13 06:08 PM
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Sure, why not have officials vote for officials. The old buddy system.

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Vandeventer] #217971 04/01/13 06:10 PM
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I think the ranking system has some merit; HOWEVER, it would have to be much more defined than a Bronze Coach. I'm sure you saw all the people on the floor this weekend that are Bronze certified and I personally don't want all of those people voting on something like this. Remember as long as you can pass a loose background check and pay the money you get a card. (I believe that to be a whole separate issue, those standards are way too loose, but that is a discussion for another day.)

As I mentioned earlier I believe an advisory board of the top 2 from each district or top 5-8 from the whole state (maybe each district doesn’t have someone considered to be the best of the best) would be a good idea, they can review small clips of video sent in and determine if there is a mistake or give the coach the proper interpretation of the rule and share that on these boards or elsewhere to help educate the whole community. This group could also pick the state crew and they could do the rating as mentioned above. Maybe the club/tournament directors could vote, I’m not 100% sure on how you limit it but to say all Bronze cards is probably not right either.

I understand this is all easier said than done but if you don’t start somewhere it will never change.

Also as mentioned before we have some great guys out there, everyone is capable of having a bad day and I wouldn’t want the job. I think the lost point here may be that we just want to refine the process and ensure the best of the best are at qualifying tournaments. Club coaches can be a complete pain in the butt to deal with. Most all are smarter than anyone else on the mat when trying to defend our kids.

Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Vandeventer] #217972 04/01/13 06:10 PM
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I was informed we had an official from Missouri at the tournament. (From Beeson)

We did; he is on the certified KS Kids officials list, he works District 1 tournaments most weekends and does a fine job...as does his son I might add. His son would have been a fine addition to our list of D1 officials.

Kevin McCall


Kevin McCall
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: KMcCall] #217974 04/01/13 06:19 PM
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The only issue I can see with having the head official select the remaining officials have the first 2 from each district qualify is one that pretty obvious.

How is Mr. Ashpole to decide who else gets in to the tournament when he himself is busy working every weekend at his own tournaments? Is he supposed to just take the word of other officials (think buddy system again), is he supposed to give up reffing each weekend to travel all across the state and evaluate the officials? Or does he just use the officials he knows from the other districts, which again could be considered that darned buddy system.

You also have great officials that don't work many kids tournaments during the year due to scheduling conflicts (High School & College) but do work as many as possible including the qualifiers, should they be penalized because they do the higher levels? Do they not have more experience usually than some of the kids level officials? Which one would you want behind the whistle when it came down to it?

These are just a few problems I see with the ideas of a "rankings" system & the proposed allocation system.


Alex R. Ryan
KSHSAA Official #15616
USAWKS Official #707
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Bronco Wrestler] #217976 04/01/13 06:20 PM
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And while it was mentioned that officials need background checks, that's fine with me, but can we get the kids level coaches to have to pass the national federation rules test?


Alex R. Ryan
KSHSAA Official #15616
USAWKS Official #707
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: Bronco Wrestler] #217978 04/01/13 06:32 PM
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I think for any open or Cadet and higher level, that would be great, but what about novice level?
Originally Posted By: Bronco Wrestler
And while it was mentioned that officials need background checks, that's fine with me, but can we get the kids level coaches to have to pass the national federation rules test?


Jimmy Moison - Lawrence Elite Wrestling Club
785-224-7349 - jimmy.moison@gmail.com
Re: State Tournament Officiating [Re: JACD_Moison] #217981 04/01/13 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: JACD_Moison
I think for any open or Cadet and higher level, that would be great, but what about novice level?
Originally Posted By: Bronco Wrestler
And while it was mentioned that officials need background checks, that's fine with me, but can we get the kids level coaches to have to pass the national federation rules test?


That's a great question, I'm not sure. Treat them like the wrestlers, and give them some leniency and allow them to gain experience if they don't feel comfortable taking the national test.

For those who do not know, all Middle School, High School, & Officials have to take the National Federation test, however the test is open book. It's still a great way to get caught up on the current rule changes & points of emphasis as well as make you look into the technicalities of it.

Officials have to score a 90% or better to be able to qualify for post season in High School.


Alex R. Ryan
KSHSAA Official #15616
USAWKS Official #707
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