Why couldn't each district select their top two refs. Then the eight selected officials hold a selection meeting to decide the remaining officials. This would do away with the so called buddy system and that way each official would have a say in who they thought was qualified to ref our state tournament

I was standing matside outside the barrier next to a Greater Gold coach who was complaining about one of the District IV officials, whom you have mentioned. I replied to him why was he complaining they voted on and sent these officials to the tournament. He replied with a straight face they were told to only vote for three officials. I inquired of several other District IV teams and this same information was confirmed. Perhaps these individuals misunderstood the instructions. What I do know, this is not the first year I have been told this same story, and I did not misunderstand what I was told.

The selecting of officials is normally not based on quality of official but more of a popularity contest. This is particulary not good when you consider the best official is one that you don't know his name!

I would like to create a tracking tool that records all officials who officiate during the season. The tournament director would be mandated to enter each official and a grade A-D based on their performance. This data could be provided to a selection committee. The same officials should not be used year in and year out as this doesn't provide for a progression of development. However, officials should be graded at state and this should be used as part of the evaluation process for the next year.

I encourage clubs to sponsor their HS and college kids who were wrestlers to encourage them to develop into officials. THE BEST OFFICIALS ARE FORMER WRESTLERS, NO DEBATE. We need to find ways to pay for their registration and make sure they are getting the nod for assignments to novice and open tournaments.

I would also recommend a process of limiting the amount of tabling that occurs during the qualifying series. Two judgement questions and you go to the stands. If it is judgement the official is NOT going to change his mind. If it is a rules question and you are right no harm done but if you are wrong twice you go to the stands. Mat officials need to be willing to summon the head official for ratification. The head official SHOULD NOT be working the mat as they should be roving the area to clarify and evaluate.


Just a few thoughts...

Why dont we just have a 2 qualifying tournaments where all the officials are the athletes and we make them wrestle for their officiating spot at the state tournament make them earn their presence at state just like the wrestlers!

We would eliminate all those weighing more than 285...

Will,
I agree that the same officials need to not be the ones at state year in year out. But on the other hand some of the officials that are there year in year out are asked to do so for good reason, because they do a good job. So I don’t think we can penalize them for that. For example I believe Van Kuhn is there most years and deservedly so. On the other hand there are a few (not to be named) that should not be there at all, a little lone year in and year out. A grading system would work if the head official was honest with the grades, and not revert back to the "Buddy System"

I agree with you that we need to be more open with dropping names of GOOD OFFICIALS rather than always talking about the questionable ones, which gets their names out there instead of the quality officials.

I don’t know how we can ensure that the best officials are represented at state, but hopefully someone comes up with an idea soon, as this is becoming a year in year out problem.

Lets get officials pictures on the webpage so we can put faces to the names.

I would say that every coach needs to officiate and every official needs to coach for at least 1 year! Everyone would have a greater understanding of the difficulties in each role.
This bickering is only hurting the quality and longevity of "good officals". This type of thread only runs "up and comers" off and decreases the longevity of the seasoned offical.
Especially in the youth tournaments.

That would be a great start!

Bickering??? It's called constructive criticism - If it runs the thin skinned off, then it serves a purpose - that's not the intentions of this thread, but if people aren't aware, then how do they know to make it better for the future? Have you read the thread in it's entirety? I would guess not...

After reading some of the posts and reflecting on the weekend, I feel that the issues that we might have had with officiating should fall on my shoulders. Prior to the tournament, I review each mat and document the age divisions and weights that are wrestling on each mat. After I do this, I start assigning officials to each mat. I assign 3 officials for 2 mats. If I am familiar with officials, I try to assign them to mats where the competition is similar to what they would have seen throughout the season. i.e. – officials that work a lot of High School to the mats where we have the high school or U14 competitors.
There are other officials that are comfortable with the smaller 8 year olds; I try to assign them to this division. As you could imagine there is huge difference in the way an 8 year old should be officiated as opposed to a high schooler. As I go about assigning, I visit with the officials to determine if they are comfortable with the assignments. I always try to assign experienced officials with officials have never worked the state tournament before; I also do this in the finals. I do this to allow the official to be comfortable with the ability of the wrestlers on their assigned mats. Throughout the day I observe and if necessary move an official to a mat that better supports their experience gives them an opportunity to succeed. Sometimes I do not recognize this in a timely manner and it causes problems.
The state tournament is a very unique environment. As the day progresses, I get multiple inquiries on rule clarification, (from both officials and coaches), people want me to watch a video of an earlier matches, grievances based on calls or situations, etc. The way that I handle grievances is to take the official to the middle of the mat, have them explain the situation; explain the criteria they used to make the call, and ensure that the rules are being followed based on the criteria. In most cases this is all I have to go off of, we can discuss the issue, but very rarely can we overturn this based on what information is provided.
I know for a fact that the officials that were selected feel honored and privileged to represent their districts at this tournament.
Keith Ashpole

Thank you Keith for your comments...the Kids Executive Board and the State Tournaement Committee appreciate all that you do. For those who do not know, Keith was again selected to be the State Official for 2013/14.

I too have been listening to all of the comments and suggestions in this thread. Some of them have been legitimately constructive; but many have been mean spirited and outright slanderous. In any public forum there is a protocol that we should follow. When addressing officials at the table (or in a public forum) I think the more constructive and less slanderous you can be your chances of getting the result you want will increase. If you are trying to get a call overturned, your chances are diminished if you come off as hostile towards those you are petitioning. I am not saying that we as coaches shouldn’t advocate for our athletes…some of us just need to tone it down a bit. Your approach and how you make your argument will naturally impact the success you ultimately have in trying to influence a reversal of any call…no matter how right you think you are.

Personally I am not sure which side I come down on with the different suggestions that have been floated in this thread about how officials are selected for the state tournament. I am still mulling over all of the pros and cons to your suggestions. But here is what I want you to do this year. If you have a complaint or want to reward an official from this year’s tournament with a letter of commendation, please email me as much detail as you can which supports your position and copy Keith Ashpole. Over the next couple weeks, I am going to ask Keith to grade this year’s State Officials individually and as a group by District. These complaints and Keith’s grades will not be shared with the membership at large. However, prior to selecting next year’s officials, Keith and I will share both his grade and any letters received with the District director whose district selected the official last year. This way if nothing changes and we still ask Districts to send in their selections next year the District director can share this information with their district membership if they feel it is applicable to the selection process…both positively or negatively.

The bottom line is…we all want good officials and for the most part I think our officials for 2012/13 did their job. If there is a small number who were out of their element then we should try to do better in our selection process. But I will stress that it is our job as coaches, club administrators, parents, and athletes to help make the best-of-the-best want to be a part of our organization. If OUR actions both on and off the mat is counterproductive to that effort then WE are part of the problem!

Thank you!

mark.stanley.ks@gmail.com
Keith.Ashpole@viachristi.org

I would support having an officials webpage with photo id. I believe this would help identify officials at a tournament, several officials do not have their number on their uniform, so finding out who they are may be a little tricky. I am an official and I have attached my photo to my posts and I encourage all officials to do so. I officiated nearly 1000 matches this year, but very few people actually know my name. I believe that I let my officiating talk for me as I do not "campaign" myself to try and persuade people that I am good enough to officiate state. I have thought about officiating state before, but have been turned off by the amount of politics there is in getting to officiate at state. I believe the current process seems alright, but could be tweaked a little. Maybe take 1 officiate away from each district and have an "at large" official get in. Either way, the way this forum is going after large tournaments(Salina and State)it is very irratating to listen to people blame the end of the world on officials. We try hard to make the most correct call, and make the day enjoyable for all. If you have a problem with the way officials are calling matches there are rules for handling the situation, yelling at officials and giving evil stares is not appropriate. I was fortunate not to have many of encounters like that this year. I officiated at Wichita and found most if not all coaches to be very polite and understanding. Thanks to all coaches for this year, in my experiences it was a good year. See all of you again in the fall.

Excellent post Mark. I had a new family this year that moved from Colorado. The Dad has helped me coach, he told me after the first tournament that in Colorado they don't pay officials for the tournaments and parents have to volunteer to officiate. That would be interesting. This time of year I always feel compelled to copy a post of Mike Juby's from several years ago. Here it is.

“Don't Blame the Ref “
By Ben Askren
The sport of wrestling is a "one on one" sport and most people involved take pride in that
aspect. However, to me, it seems many only keep it "one on one" when it seems convenient for
them to do so. What am I talking about? Blaming the referee!
How often do you hear "I got screwed by the referee?" Last week I heard the phrase from an 8
year old member of the club I help out with. It made me sick. Well I am here to tell you, by
blaming the referee you are taking the easy way out and degrading the sport.
I say this for a number of reasons. First, most refs are good natured and do their job to the
best of their ability. They don't get paid a lot and more often than not, they ref as a service to
the sport of wrestling. Which brings me to my next point; why are fans so out-of-control in
regard to referees? Refs are trying to do a good job. The next time there is a questionable call,
be quiet and listen to those around you. Most likely you will be thinking "Wow. These people
are crazy" or "Man, these people sound stupid." Well, guess what, you sound the exact same
way. Next time, as a fan, you feel the need to scream an obscenity at the top of your lungs,
DON'T! It really isn't necessary and isn't fair to the referees. How would you like it if someone
came to your job and screamed obscenities at you and told you, you sucked?
There is a wrestling referee shortage in America, and it is the fans fault. Give refs a break, and
use your energy to support your wrestler instead.
As a wrestler, the reason to not to blame the referee is simple. It is your fault you lost, not the
refs. So often, it is sickening to see wrestlers waiting for overtime or double OT and the flip.
That concept is foreign to me. I figure if you wait that long you deserve to lose the match. I
have a simple philosophy that prevents me from blaming the referee. If my match is close
enough where the ref can make a difference then it is my fault I put him in the equation. I
strongly believe all wrestlers should think this way. If you have a problem beating people by a
lot, the answer is simple: Work Harder. I have never seen Cael Sanderson or Alexander Karelin
whine about the call of a ref. Did you? Wrestlers, do your jobs! Take responsibility for what you
do and don't blame someone else.
Next time you are at a wrestling meet, relax, cheer for the wrestlers and don't heckle the
referee. Rather applaud (not literally) his effort.
Wrestlers, next time the ref makes a questionable call, think of where you could have worked
harder and be mad at yourself instead.
Good job refs! Have fun everyone.
Ben Askren, Volunteer Assistant Coach, University of Missouri
Olympic Team Hopeful
2 X NCAA D-I Champion
2 X NCAA D-I Runner-up
2007 ESPY Nominee for Best Male Athlete
2 X Dan Hodge Trophy Winner
3rd on NCAA Pin list with 91 falls
2 X Wisconsin High School State Champion

Thanks Keith,

OK boys....I am going to make one post on this topic...First, a little about me since very few of you know me: Coached 20+ years as a Rules 10 at 2 H.S.s, coached at 2 Jr Highs, was a Kids Coach & Head Coach of the Manhattan Kids Club for 10 years, am Bronze certified and was at one time certified to put on Bronze Cretification Clinics (THANKS Randy H :))This all doesnt matter but with so few posts, I am sure someone will say, "who the hell is he"

You can ask around and I was HARD on officials but I don't hold a candle to the B.S. I see at Kids Tournaments today...Parents & Coaches SCREAMING at officials at a Sunday Novice Tournament, Coaches telling wrestlers, "the ref screwed you", Chewing a ref's A$$ in front of his wreslter, Griping about a call from the week before, the conduct I see is INSANE.

You can rate, rank and get whatever officials you think deserve to be at State and I realize that is what this post is about but all you all better know you ARE running good young officials out of the sport.

My son has been fortunate to have a very good HS Official, Mark Wallace, take him under his wing. He has also had the good fortune of some top notch coahces help correct errors he has made on the mat...This occurred when he was officiating HS.

I saw some suggestions in this thread about taking the officials test, and officiating some matches...Try it boys...It is NOT as easy as it looks...I would also encourage you to go to some HS matches...I don't think I have ever seen a coach or a parent standing mat side SCREAMING at an official for an entire match...Lastly, Buy yourself a rule book and LEARN it and carry it in your pocket. It is tough for an official to deny something if you open the book and show it to them.

Good luck to all of you and I hope you get what you want for STATE but you all better realize you have bigger problems than that...My boys have both graduated from HS and moved on but I care about the sport

You can PM if you want to talk.

What about this:

Official Selection - Each district votes for their own head official

That elected official then selects his 6 officials to officiate the Kids State Tournament - the head official is in charge of his own officials and will be rated by marks from coaches or other officials

For Example purposes, DAY 1:

District 1 consists of:
Referee #1 - ALL DAY
Referee #2 - 8-noon
Referee #3 - 8-noon
Referee #4 - 8-noon
Referee #5 - Noon-Finish
Referee #6 - Noon-Finish
Referee #7 - Noon-Finish

District 2 consists of:
Referee #8 - ALL DAY
Referee #9 - 8-noon
Referee #10 - 8-noon
Referee #11 - 8-noon
Referee #12 - Noon-Finish
Referee #13 - Noon-Finish
Referee #14 - Noon-Finish

District 3 consists of:
Referee #15 - ALL DAY
Referee #16 - 8-noon
Referee #17 - 8-noon
Referee #18 - 8-noon
Referee #19 - Noon-Finish
Referee #20 - Noon-Finish
Referee #21 - Noon-Finish

District 4 consists of:
Referee #22 - ALL DAY
Referee #23 - 8-noon
Referee #24 - 8-noon
Referee #25 - 8-noon
Referee #26 - Noon-Finish
Referee #27 - Noon-Finish
Referee #28 - Noon-Finish

Officials # 1, 8, 15, 22 are head refs and will be observing or filling in

from 8-noon, (just a number) referees # 2,3,4 - 9,10,11 - 16,17,18 - 23,24,25 will all be present to work mats (12 total)
Then from noon-finish, referees 5,6,7 - 12,13,14 - 19,20,21 - 26,27,28 will be present to work

If for whatever reason a district doesn't have enough officials to assign, the other districts can bring in to fill the positions unmanned

For Example purposes of DAY 2:

District 1 consists of:
Referee #1 - ALL DAY
Referee #2 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #3 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #4 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #5 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #6 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED
Referee #7 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES

District 2 consists of:
Referee #8 - ALL DAY
Referee #9 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #10 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #11 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #12 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #13 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED
Referee #14 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES

District 3 consists of:
Referee #15 - ALL DAY
Referee #16 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #17 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #18 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #19 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #20 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #21 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED

District 4 consists of:
Referee #22 - ALL DAY
Referee #23 - 8-11 - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #24 - 8-11 - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #25 - 8-11 – NOT SELECTED
Referee #26 - 11-Up to placement bouts - CHAMPIONSHIP MATCHES
Referee #27 - 11-Up to placement bouts - 3rd & 4th PLACE MATCHES
Referee #28 - 11-Up to placement bouts – NOT SELECTED

Do the same shift-work as day 1 and get a guesstimate (I think the placing matched took place around 1 or 2) of how long officials will be working (8-11 then 11-2)

During the intermission from the regular bouts to the placement bouts, the head referees will then tally their scores for each ref, and determine which of their top 10 officials (i know 2 districts will be short since the placement bouts have 2 refs per mat) based on their overall score from the amount of marks that ref has. The top 2 officials from each district officiate the Championship matches - the other 2 in line by markings total, officiate the 3rd & 4th place matches

This way, the referees are responsible for their selections and accountable for their own District and everyone can see who is/is not available for the placement matches

Good god Jimmy - That took some time to put together.........Nice job!

Bret

Thanks Bret

Mr. Stanley, Mr. Ashpole, does my idea sound logical? I know there are some flaws, but overall doable and fair - Ideas anyone?

Jimmy,

You're in effect doubling the expense of hiring officials. Along with that would be double mileage and hotel rooms? All that stuff adds up big time, how will the state cover the added expenses?

My mileage alone was over $150 and I wasn't the farthest one away, so keep that kind of stuff in mind. Also you will be sacrificing consistency in matches switching officials so much and maybe that won't matter to most.

Why bring up the expense of things???

If it would guarantee that STATE TOURNAMENT would have the best of the best officials on hand, I would more than gladly pay an extra fee (as many would) at the beginning of the year to help compensate those "additional expenses" - I bet you really didn't think this out before you responded... If I (we) as a parent(s) pay THOUSANDS of dollars per year to make our kids better wrestlers, then we should deservingly expect to have the best officials at the state tournament. Correct??? Money is a scapegoat.

How about this then... There were 165 teams this year at state, if we told each club we were going to bump up the club costs/fees to 20 dollars more per year I guarantee that ANY serious club in the state would gladly pay that extra amount - That itself would almost cover a hotel stay for all 28 referees (it would only be like 20 rooms) - Also try and find a way to use the "late addition" or "late weight change" penalty fees.This thread was created for the sole intentions of finding out how the coaches and referees can get along better and respect one another. Not to discuss finances.

Consistency??? Obviously you weren't on MAT 3 or 8 all day...

I think that there are some great suggestions being offered.

Using your presentation there is still an opportunity for errors. If there is one official, calls could still be missed, calls can be missed with 2 officials. Sometimes officials cannot attend or do not want to attend the tournament due to the travel, time involved and/or difficulty of the tournament. How would other districts feel if they did not have equal representation? i.e. - 10 officials from a single district.

Officials are required to attend a KSHSAA rules meeting and take an online test. There are also clinics offered throughout the state. None of this can replace on the mat, live competition experience. This experience can take a long time to develop. Kid’s wrestling is extremely difficult do to the environment, the expectations and nature of our sport. There are a lot of people that try to officiate and quickly realize that it is not an easy job and abandon officiating. There are lessons learned every week. Middle School, High School sub-varsity or, even High School varsity cannot fully prepare you for a kid’s tournament.

KSHSAA has kicked around the idea for an officials ranking system for a while. Personalities, friendships, prejudices, etc, can come into play and affect objectivity, this is human nature. Here are some ideas for ranking or grading criteria – how many individuals have the knowledge or experience to grade officials.

How many coaches and even some officials could rank officials on these basic fundamentals, there could be other grading criteria added. There is more to becoming a capable official that meets the eye.

Appearance
On time
positioning
Communication
mechanics
Rule Knowledge
Rule Application
Issue Handling


Ideas
A list of officials that are being used every week can be posted. This could be supplied by the lead official or the tournament director. I could post the names and official numbers. I am hesitant on posting pictures, I’m not sure other officials would be receptive of having their pictures published either.

In the past we had been issued patches with official numbers to attach to our shirts that would assist with identifying the official. These numbers are still assigned. The problem with this is that if a young official only had 1 shirt they might have to remove the patch prior to working other events.

Some officials might not be certified. We would only have a name. Maybe you could request the hometown or phone number. Someone could do a follow-up to encourage them to become certified. I am doing this in district 2 currently.

Hire enough officials to have 2 officials on every mat at the state tournament.

Things to consider:
As an official we do not care who wins the match. Our concern is to call the match fairly to the best of our ability, ensure that rules are enforced and followed to the best of our ability, and insure that no one is put in a situation that could cause injury.

Officials are not perfect. Consider how many calls are made in a normal match and multiply it by this number of matches in a day. There will be hundreds of calls made. Then add the pressure of the State Tournament to this. Some of these are going to be easy, some difficult. Coaches, parents, and wrestlers expect calls and points to be awarded quickly. There is usually not time to stop and consider or think through the calls, our sport is based on action and reaction, in a good match, things can happen very quickly.

Thoughts
• This must be a partnership, both parties need to work together to provide solutions.
• We are short of officials throughout the state.
• It is difficult to develop and retain good officials due to the environment that has been created.
• If you do not notice an official all day long, he is performing an outstanding job.
• Do you just acknowledge officials that make good calls (maybe in your favor).
• 1 or 2 bad calls (or calls you do not agree with) do not make a bad official.
• Consistency is important, even if there is a bad official if they are consistently bad you know what to expect.
• If you were performing to the best of your ability, and there were issues, how would you feel if your name was posted so anyone in the state can see it and comment about any issues – real or perceived that occurred.
• If an opposing coach knows that call was incorrect, show some integrity and inform the official the call was incorrect and refuse the points awarded. (Let’s see how that flies).

I attend the state body meeting and the D2 meeting. I would welcome the opportunity to attend your district meetings. I had discussed with the board assigning a lead official for every district. I will bring this up again. I also try to send an outline to lead officials that I know of, that can be reviewed prior to competitions with the officiating crew.

With our current system it is important to vote for yout district officials.

Keith Ashpole