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Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: sportsfan02] #220884 10/01/13 01:54 PM
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I agree that more emphasis needs to be put on duals. Duals are fan friendly and can get your student population involved. We dropped a 2-day tournament (which we loved going to) in order to pick up more duals. We will have 5 home varsity duals plus our JV WAC Dual Championships this year. We have a student section right next to the mat (which has on average 100 students in it), spotlight, music, etc. We will be bringing in our drumline this year as well. It's taken a lot of work to get it that way and we still have a lot of work to keep our fan base growing.

I grew up in Iowa and we would have 10-12 duals, not including dual tournaments. We had maybe 3 or 4 tournaments. Wrestling duals are huge there. Obviously tournaments are important for our kids in order to get prepared for the state series (We got to some pretty tough ones). However, duals are important for our sport's popularity in the schools/community and to attract parents to the sport.

Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: sportsfan02] #220885 10/01/13 02:56 PM
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Cokeley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Chief Renegade
Originally Posted By: ksuwrestling2
Chief, those numbers are miss leading. Even you have to admit wrestling was more popular in the 80s. Back in the good old days whole towns would show up to watch a tournament or meet.


Steve, The numbers are what they are. The sport is growing. The top tournaments have awesome crowds. One issue that is hurting our fan participation is the limit of scheduling points inposed by KSHSAA. This has led to the decline of individual duals. They need to add points specifically for duals to bring together the local fans.

Speak for yourself! Many of the schools in south central Kansas have as many or more duals as they ever did. In addition, the duals I attend are, more often than not, well attended with enthusiastic crowds.
While attendance at "top tournaments", that's only about 4 tournaments may be up, the attendance at the rest of the tournaments continues to decline. I attribute that decline to two main factors. 1. The thought of youth coaches and parents that their kids need to be wrestling somewhere EVERY Saturday of the season and the further from home the better. In years past, even when kids were wrestling the same day as their high school they often could make it home in time to watch, what should be their mentors, wrestle. If your youth wrestler is wrestling in BFE every Saturday then he isn't going to see much high school wrestling. 2. The first and foremost reason IMO for tournament attendance decline is tournaments are not run in such a manner so as to encourage attendance by fans. How many tournaments receive advance advertising or publicity today? Even if they do, are firm session start times, particularly for the finals, posted or adhered to? With today's computer programs high school tournaments run much more predictably so session times should be publicized and barring weather should be run per that schedule. Also, if you are going to have real time results online don't expect people to show up in greater numbers.
As usual, people are asking KSHAA to force them to do what is best for the sport as a whole. If you want more duals, then simply schedule more duals!


There are many good points in this stream. Since I started it I hope it is ok for me to post my opinion even though no one asked me for it eek

1. Wrestling is for the kids. The more opportunities we create the more kids we get. I don't agree with having to create opportunities for success just to facilitate growth. Success comes from making the right choices and I think that is what we have to teach.
2. Ask EVERY high school wrestler what their goal is and I guarantee a landslide majority will have a "STATE" goal of some type (going, winning matches, placing, being a champion). NO ARGUMENT HERE.
3. State is a two day event. FACT
4. How do you prepare for State? Go to as many two day events allowed! DUALS do not get you ready for state and we don't have a dual state which is the ONLY real way to determine the best team in the state.
5. I LOVE duals and I want more. So I DO ADVOCATE a mission to get KSHSAA to add 5 points to be used ONLY for a single dual on a Mon, Tue, Wed, or Thur after school schedule. Kansas wrestlers have some of the lowest season match totals in the country. We could stand five more matches. Our kids are not wimps.
6. Our Kids State series is run past the end of the HS season. Yes, this creates conflict. Greg has his opinion and I respectfully disagree with most of it. There are 8000 kids buying cards and maybe 80 of them are wrestling outside of the state. Maybe 3000 of them are wrestling EVERY Saturday. Weekday night duals are sorely needed to pump some life into the student body and make it more parent friendly.
7. I do NOT think that the internet or access to real time information is hurting attendance. If you can attend in person you will. Those tools are for those who can't. It is expensive to drive to a tournament. Some people are physically unable to make it. Others have to work. The internet is partially responsible for the growth we have seen the last 20 years.
8. Coach apathy is a problem. Too many times I see teams leave before the finals if their team has no one in them. Too many times I hear coaches complaining about the number of hours they have to put in so they want to get done and leave. This is a problem. Fix this and the bar will be raised in KS. If you are coaching for the check then step down and lets find a passionate coach to take the helm.
9. I totally agree with publicizing and fixed scheduling. I really like it when the order of the finals is switched up to put the marquee match last. I LOVE tournament finals that are run by themselves. Last year's 5A and 6A state finals were a disgrace to KSHSAA. The finalist should not be sharing the crowd with two other placement matches.

In WI the kids tournaments are on Sunday to facilitate the attendance of HS events. Of course this creates other challenges.

I see lots of causes listed by Sport0, how about proposing some solutions...


Will Cokeley
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Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: Cokeley] #220890 10/01/13 06:48 PM
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Answer me this, Could Dan Gable go into the average high school in Kansas in win a state title in one year?

NO WAY. we need to make it more competitive so more kids will want to go out. To me it is more important for a kid to wrestle than to have ONE state tournament.

I honestly believe if every kid in the United States would wrestle it would solve a lot of this country's problems. I AM PASSOINATE ABOUT WRESTLING AND THINK EVERY KID SHOULD DO IT.

Therefore, I am all about which ever system gets more kids out.


Steve Moser
Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: Cokeley] #220892 10/01/13 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02

Speak for yourself! Many of the schools in south central Kansas have as many or more duals as they ever did. In addition, the duals I attend are, more often than not, well attended with enthusiastic crowds.
While attendance at "top tournaments", that's only about 4 tournaments may be up, the attendance at the rest of the tournaments continues to decline. I attribute that decline to two main factors. 1. The thought of youth coaches and parents that their kids need to be wrestling somewhere EVERY Saturday of the season and the further from home the better. In years past, even when kids were wrestling the same day as their high school they often could make it home in time to watch, what should be their mentors, wrestle. If your youth wrestler is wrestling in BFE every Saturday then he isn't going to see much high school wrestling. 2. The first and foremost reason IMO for tournament attendance decline is tournaments are not run in such a manner so as to encourage attendance by fans. How many tournaments receive advance advertising or publicity today? Even if they do, are firm session start times, particularly for the finals, posted or adhered to? With today's computer programs high school tournaments run much more predictably so session times should be publicized and barring weather should be run per that schedule. Also, if you are going to have real time results online don't expect people to show up in greater numbers.
As usual, people are asking KSHAA to force them to do what is best for the sport as a whole. If you want more duals, then simply schedule more duals!

I see lots of causes listed by Sport0, how about proposing some solutions...

I thought that is what I just did.


Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: ksuwrestling2] #220893 10/02/13 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: ksuwrestling2
Answer me this, Could Dan Gable go into the average high school in Kansas in win a state title in one year?
NO WAY. we need to make it more competitive so more kids will want to go out. To me it is more important for a kid to wrestle than to have ONE state tournament.


Easily!!! He is of a mentality that no longer exists in the "Average High School" or "Average Kid".


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: sportsfan02] #220894 10/02/13 11:44 AM
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Ron Burgandy......Baker was a freaking stud, and after his finals match I gave the kid a big ol' bear hug when he came to our corner. I told him that I was proud of him. My assistant asked me why I did that, and I really didn't have a good answer. I'm sure I made something up, but the fact of the matter was that he was your first finalist, I believe, and was a really good kid. I WAS proud of him.
Heckel, by the way, is living in Australia and coaching wrestling at some MMA gym, trying to make it in the sport. I wish him the best too. Wrestlers... gotta love em wink


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Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: sportsfan02] #220895 10/02/13 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Originally Posted By: sportsfan02

Speak for yourself! Many of the schools in south central Kansas have as many or more duals as they ever did. In addition, the duals I attend are, more often than not, well attended with enthusiastic crowds.
While attendance at "top tournaments", that's only about 4 tournaments may be up, the attendance at the rest of the tournaments continues to decline. Coaches are not promoting their programs. They are not walking the halls and pulling kids in with a motivating talk. Many coaches are not even employed inside the school so their access is very limited. Tournaments prepare you for state. Duals are for show. I attribute that decline to two main factors. 1. The thought of youth coaches and parents that their kids need to be wrestling somewhere EVERY Saturday of the season and the further from home the better. In years past, even when kids were wrestling the same day as their high school they often could make it home in time to watch, what should be their mentors, wrestle. If your youth wrestler is wrestling in BFE every Saturday then he isn't going to see much high school wrestling. [colo What is your solution? Kids and parents are doing what it takes to get better. This is why we need weekday night duals for these kids to attend. If our state series was over then kids would go to HS state like they do in other states. I see you making an observation but not presenting a viable solution or even an alternative. You seem to be telling kids to "not wrestle but to watch". Does that improve KS wrestling?? 2. The first and foremost reason IMO for tournament attendance decline is tournaments are not run in such a manner so as to encourage attendance by fans. How many tournaments receive advance advertising or publicity today? Even if they do, are firm session start times, particularly for the finals, posted or adhered to? With today's computer programs high school tournaments run much more predictably so session times should be publicized and barring weather should be run per that schedule. Also, if you are going to have real time results online don't expect people to show up in greater numbers. Again, I see you identifying what you see as causes but you are not making suggestions. How could they publicize them better. How many more people would come if it wasn't online? Do you have data to backup your claim that firm scheduling would entice more attendance? I think having finals at 7pm would as all the kids tournaments would be over then but I don't have any evidence...As usual, people are asking KSHAA to force them to do what is best for the sport as a whole. If you want more duals, then simply schedule more duals! It isn't that simple. You have to make a choice between tournaments and duals. Why are we so limited in match count when other states are not? I presented a solution that requires change. You seem to think that people should just make a choice that might be contrary to their goals just so you get what you want...

I see lots of causes listed by Sport0, how about proposing some solutions...

I thought that is what I just did.


Will Cokeley
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Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: Cokeley] #220896 10/02/13 04:14 PM
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"Coaches are not promoting their programs. They are not walking the halls and pulling kids in with a motivating talk."

We are supposed to be doing this?? Seems like a lot of work!

Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: ksuwrestling2] #220898 10/02/13 05:56 PM
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Does Dan Gable have the coaching ability to do this? ABSOLUTELY. A better question is would the parents let him be a coach that he needs to be. It appears to me that many kids never reach their full potential, because they may have been yelled at or told they need to work harder by their coach, and then the parents are at the school or school board complaining that the coach yelled at my son/daughter. I know this is not the case at every school and with every wrestler, but it does seem to be happening more often, as parents want their kids to be successful, but not have to put in the work to do so.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.

Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: L.Geyer] #220899 10/02/13 06:36 PM
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I think the above opinion is spot on these days. I do not know if my coaches or my coaching style can even work these days...success is wanted, the hard work and discipline to do it..well...not so much

Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: L.Geyer] #220901 10/02/13 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: L.Geyer
Does Dan Gable have the coaching ability to do this? ABSOLUTELY. A better question is would the parents let him be a coach that he needs to be. It appears to me that many kids never reach their full potential, because they may have been yelled at or told they need to work harder by their coach, and then the parents are at the school or school board complaining that the coach yelled at my son/daughter. I know this is not the case at every school and with every wrestler, but it does seem to be happening more often, as parents want their kids to be successful, but not have to put in the work to do so.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.


The pussification of America...just what the Liberals want! Public education's philosophy, in general, a giant push for mediocrity.


Will Cokeley
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Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: Cokeley] #220902 10/02/13 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cokeley
Originally Posted By: L.Geyer
Does Dan Gable have the coaching ability to do this? ABSOLUTELY. A better question is would the parents let him be a coach that he needs to be. It appears to me that many kids never reach their full potential, because they may have been yelled at or told they need to work harder by their coach, and then the parents are at the school or school board complaining that the coach yelled at my son/daughter. I know this is not the case at every school and with every wrestler, but it does seem to be happening more often, as parents want their kids to be successful, but not have to put in the work to do so.

Just my opinion for what it is worth.


The pussification of America...just what the Liberals want! Public education's philosophy, in general, a giant push for mediocrity.


Two Great Posts here. We have had good coaches fired here in Ark City for being too hard on the kids. Everybody wants to be good but few want to put in the time, effort, or discipline. Too many parents call the school to complain about working too hard or pushing the kids too much and then wonder why they do not get the results that they want, or used to get when parents let the coaches, coach.

I remember watching kids get jerked around by their facemasks in football. I remember getting only one water break a practice. I remember being pushed in the wrestling room to the point of tears. Coaches are not allowed to build character anymore. The kids are allowed to quit.

Pussification of America is running rampant, and it is the fault of THE PARENTS.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: Cokeley] #220903 10/02/13 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted By: Cokeley
The pussification of America...just what the Liberals want! Public education's philosophy, in general, a giant push for mediocrity.


This is not just a Public Education's problem. I see it everywhere, private schools included. Even your beloved St. James.


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: Beeson] #220906 10/02/13 11:02 PM
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What you hypocrites call Pussification of America is total CRAP. You talk about things as though every program is the same. You don't get it. I don't even want to hear it if you're from a private school. Private schools have a huge advantage over public. But we're not talking about kids that move to Manhattan because of the great wrestling program. We are talking about kids who are receiving something for going to a private school. They get "scholarships" to go a private school. Boosters have been known to provide jobs for their parents (only if they switch). Some even go so far to pay for an apartment so a kid can move from one side of the state to the other.

What ever happened to a level playing field?! I guess you guys support using steroids and false birth certificates too. Any thing to win, right? Save all this crap you've been spewing out your mouth for someone Who might actually buy your BS.


Steve Moser
Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: ksuwrestling2] #220907 10/02/13 11:16 PM
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Cokeley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: ksuwrestling2
What you hypocrites call Pussification of America is total CRAP. You talk about things as though every program is the same. You don't get it. I don't even want to hear it if you're from a private school. Private schools have a huge advantage over public. But we're not talking about kids that move to Manhattan because of the great wrestling program. We are talking about kids who are receiving something for going to a private school. They get "scholarships" to go a private school. Boosters have been known to provide jobs for their parents (only if they switch). Some even go so far to pay for an apartment so a kid can move from one side of the state to the other.

What ever happened to a level playing field?! I guess you guys support using steroids and false birth certificates too. Any thing to win, right? Save all this crap you've been spewing out your mouth for someone Who might actually buy your BS.


I am not even sure what the heck you are talking about? Did you start drinking at lunch today?


Will Cokeley
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Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: Cokeley] #220910 10/02/13 11:46 PM
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Dammit. Twice today I have agreed with Cokeley...I'm starting to wonder if I started drinking at Lunch today. laugh


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: ksuwrestling2] #220912 10/03/13 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: ksuwrestling2
What you hypocrites call Pussification of America is total CRAP. You talk about things as though every program is the same. You don't get it. I don't even want to hear it if you're from a private school. Private schools have a huge advantage over public. But we're not talking about kids that move to Manhattan because of the great wrestling program. We are talking about kids who are receiving something for going to a private school. They get "scholarships" to go a private school. Boosters have been known to provide jobs for their parents (only if they switch). Some even go so far to pay for an apartment so a kid can move from one side of the state to the other.

What ever happened to a level playing field?! I guess you guys support using steroids and false birth certificates too. Any thing to win, right? Save all this crap you've been spewing out your mouth for someone Who might actually buy your BS.


Pretty sure close to every single thread this guy posts on he finds a way making it to a "private schools are cheaters" topic. Time for a new hobby.

Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: rccokeley] #220913 10/03/13 01:46 AM
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How did this turn into "Rich kid, poor kid"? Doesn't matter where or how you grew up. Kids who want to succeed will and always have. Now if we are going off kids who want to wrestle as Freshman, (Who have never done it before) then yes, they aren't going to do well against wrestlers who have been doing for years. No matter school size, public, or private.
Example; I went to a 4A School in the late 80s early 90s. Never wrestled before my sophomore year. Got my ass kicked first year but came back for more. 2nd year drew the likes of E.K. Franks and Johnny McCreary, still got killed but stuck with it. Was I a state champion NO, but I grew to love the sport an am still coaching today. FYI I was the poor kid. But wouldn't change a single thing.

Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: ksuwrestling2] #220919 10/03/13 12:52 PM
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My post was not pointing fingers at private or public schools in general, or even only wrestling in general. Parents are crying to the school boards, or to the school administration too often. It happens in many sports.

Again this is just my opinion.

Lance Geyer

Re: Classification Data..."Food for thought..." [Re: ksuwrestling2] #220922 10/03/13 03:19 PM
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Cokeley Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: ksuwrestling2
What you hypocrites call Pussification of America is total CRAP. You talk about things as though every program is the same. You don't get it. I don't even want to hear it if you're from a private school. Private schools have a huge advantage over public. But we're not talking about kids that move to Manhattan because of the great wrestling program. We are talking about kids who are receiving something for going to a private school. They get "scholarships" to go a private school. Boosters have been known to provide jobs for their parents (only if they switch). Some even go so far to pay for an apartment so a kid can move from one side of the state to the other.
What ever happened to a level playing field?! I guess you guys support using steroids and false birth certificates too. Any thing to win, right? Save all this crap you've been spewing out your mouth for someone Who might actually buy your BS.


I think only Steve Moser has decided that it was time to make unsubstantiated, unfounded, grossly inaccurate, untrue, ludicrous, ridiculous, asinine statements. If Tim Moeder were still reading this he might seek Mr. Moser out. I know that Steve likes to be on the stage as he is a stand up comic wannabe. Since he likes being in the spotlight I will invite him to St. James so he can talk to all of the parents and find out just HOW STUPID his comments are. Then we will put him on a stage in an Octagon for a fundraiser. He can do his stand up routine in fighter shorts then he and I can go at it UFC style for three rounds. I think we could make some good money for a fighting comic show. Any thoughts on how much we should sell tickets for? Anyone else want a shot at Steve?


Will Cokeley
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