On the video from the time the left leg goes in - back point criteria has been met and control established - count to yourself "one thousand one, one thousand two" darn close - do not watch the officials arm it is late in the count. It depends on how fast you talk in your count.

I agree with Beeson. Reversal 2, no NF. It matters when the referee considers the wrestler to have established control, this is a judgment call on when he feels that control has been gained.

If you use the timer on the youtube video I think control could have been established sometime during the second between 0:07 and 0:08 when the left leg goes in and the bottom wrestlers hips begin to drop. The referee signals the reversal almost right at 0:08. This is natural because he needs to make sure the kid has control first before awarding the point. Everyone has seen a referee award reversals or takedowns too quickly only to have the other kid scramble out of it.

Let the video go forward to 0:09 second and pause it. The kid is CLEARLY out of nearfall criteria. He's at 90 degrees already by the time the referee moves so we can see it. Therefore he had to have been out of NF criteria at least an instant before the referee moves so we can see it.

Adding this time together I think it was about 1.5 sec that the kid was in NF. Therefore no NF points should be awarded. The referee appears to have a full two count but it is almost impossible for a referee to stop his arm motion at exactly the instant a kid comes out of NF criteria so his arm appears to give a full two count even though the kid came out of NF criteria. And you can see that at the 0:09 mark, the kid is out of NF criteria and the referees arm is not quite all the way extended for the full count. Even if his arm gets fully extended he has to make the decision in his mind, "did the kid come out of NF criteria before my arm was fully extended?" I think the answer is yes he did.

That analysis took about 2 minutes to do by video. The official had ONLY the moment that the move was taking place to make the call. Not to mention he had the BEST view possible of when the kid came out of NF criteria and was not obstructed. And he made the correct call in my opinion.

I don't think it is as obvious a 2 NF as the poster would have you believe. It's easy for armchair officials to not agree with a call and post it on-line and complain a wrong call was made, but in the instant the action is taking place would they be able to make the same call??? We'll never know.

Quick question. What is the difference between dancing around and backing out to shooting in and holding onto a leg? Both are stalling as I believe it says something about working to improve position doesn't it?

Shooting in and grabbing a leg is a huge position improvement over backing out and dancing around. It also gives you the opportunity to score a takedown if you want. Shooting in and grabbing a leg is stalemate the first time, stalling the second, and a point the third time. Personally, if I'm shooting three times and getting to a leg, I'm going to score at least one of those times.

Video....yes.

I'm glad it wasn't me...the official greatly complicated the situation by swinging his arm, but as others have pointed out, that's not the question. The question is were the points earned? But swinging that arm and not awarding points is never going to make you popular. And if the statement was "it wasn't close" I think it should have been "it was close."

Based on what I can see, in hindsight, being able to rewind it and look for both control and criteria (you need both), I would not give any NF points. However, if I had actually been on the mat, I could easily have been sucked into the emotion of the moment and subconsciously rewarded the kid for his last-ditch, tremendous effort and awarded the points.

I could live with myself making either call--we are talking literally about one second or less, control, and criteria. If the call had gone the other way we'd be arguing whether it was really a near-fall situation.

In these type of situations, I err on the side of making certain that the offensive wrestler actually has restraining power over the defensive wrestler and the scramble has played itself before awarding points.

Thanks for the video.

Very good analysis and explanation.

But that's not how you explained it. Didn't you say shoot in grab a leg and hold on?

I definitely seen a one count then official is in the view of the shoulders for the second count so I can't tell whether his shoulder are still meeting near fall criteria, then when the official moves again to his knee the shoulders were definitely not in near fall criteria position .. so who knows

I think first you have to give the hold a second or two to make sure control is established beyond reaction time. Then start a one count (signal the reversal later, there's time to get to that). I have a one count, then the ref is in the way of seeing exactly when the bottom wrestler comes out of the 45degrees.

Plus, we have the benefit of video replay, in real time it's WAY different scenario.

Try officiating everybody, it is not an easy job! Some of the smartest wrestling minds I know ref, and make "questionable" calls all the time. It's the nature of sports.

Ok Jerry, lets put it this way. You should not stall. You should initiate contact. I should have said "shoot and wrestle" don't dance around like a boxer or a ballerina.

I would rather see a kid lose a match hitting a move than win one by stalling.

I agree.

Find one high school coach in this state who would encourage their kids to put themselves into a potential match losing situation when up a number of points in a state tournament match.

If you do ... I might have a bridge to sell you.

So, you are a fan of stalling?

(Long post)

No not at all. Then again in a high school match there is 6 minutes in regulation, and most don't really even care about stalling if their wrestler is the offending party. There are a few coaches around the state, and I hate to drop names but I think it illustrates my point, like Jason Brown of Anderson County who actually recognizes when his own wrestlers are stalling and actually asks the referee to call his wrestler for stalling. This is in stark contrast to many others whose words to the referee is to insist they call the other guy.

Finally to my point, if a wrestler didn't do enough in the first 5:15 to 5:30 of the match to find him/herself trailing in points, you can't possibly expect the referee to throw out 2 1/2 periods worth of work by the other guy just so the other guy can have a chance.

It's sort of like the Victory formation in football. Granted there is no rule against kneeling on the ball in football, but the idea is the same. It's interesting how the ebb and flow of opinions on stalling in high school wrestling change. Lots of people clamor for stalling to be called more, and yet when it is, inevitably yet another countless post on the topic ends up on this forum when some hot shot referee "decided" the match unfairly by calling a wrestler for stalling near the end of the match.

Several years ago Missouri tried a bold experiment within its borders which essentially amounted to referees being instructed to call wrestlers for stalling in neutral for backing out of the 10 ft circle without an ensuing takedown shot attempt. The number of stall calls shot up exponentially. Within just a couple of years of that experiment they decided that was too extreme.

Bottom line is one group of people want stalling called one way, the other group wants it called the other, and ultimately both groups really only want stalling called when it benefits them or the system they teach. Much the same way that one group wants officials to "stay out of the match" and the other wants them controlling the flow of the match. If the NFHS put out a survey today asking my opinion of whether stalling was an issue in our area I would answer ... no not really.

I have ask refs in the past that have said to my wrestlers "action" or "don't back out" to quit talking to my wrestler and bang him. I would rather him learn in December or January than I would at State. It seems that alot of the times the officials won't call stalling until it gets to regionals or state and then alot of the times they wait and give the pitty warning at the end of the match. When I say I would rather see a kid lose a match hitting a move than I would see him win one by stalling maybe I should have typed slower so others could keep up. I would rather see him lose staying active and aggressive and hitting high percetage moves that stall. Better?

Very admirable,

but honestly you are in the SMALL minority of coaches who actually do that. So perhaps your attention is focused on the wrong group of individuals (the officials), when you should be focused on your counterparts in the coaching ranks.

Just think of all the times you have heard coaches at all levels across the state say things to their wrestlers like "Look where you are" , "Wrestle smart" , "Spiral RIDE", "Circle" , etc etc. These are all buzz words that coaches use to tell their wrestler to either stall or flee the mat without thinking it might be obvious to everyone else around them. Stalling is darn near encouraged universally here, and oh lord you can't imagine the conversations that happen at the table when things like fleeing the mat are called.

Just a thought.

Are you serious? Just because some coaches may encourage stalling does not make it right.The worst argument you can make is that the ref cost a kid a match by calling stalling....the kid would cost himself the match by not taking the stall warning serious and fixing the rule violation he is engaged in. It is nothing like taking a knee in football one is within the rules of the sport while the other is a clear violation. Good consistent stalling calls are not just good for the sport they are essential.

I don't know what world it is that thinks that stalling is universally encouraged but wow. Point of this whole thread was what most people on here think was a bad call and now this. How about we get crayons out just for you and start a thread called "Universal Stalling"

I will say have seen this missed call with this same move alot. Imo most refs are unsure of what just happened and are a little delayed in reaction and count. But love to see someone besides my kid use it! By the way stills works in college but the other wrestler gets real PO compared to HS when they get pinned with it!! I say 2+2.