I would like to say that after attending this tournament I am not sure I could find another tournament that was ran as poorly as this one was. First, how ever the decision is made on where to host the District Tournament, I believe alot more thought needs to go into it than what was given this year. Looking at the District, North and South qualifer page I came up with the following numbers.
8 & under had 135 wrestlers
10 & under had 134 wrestlers
12 & under had 150 wrestlers
14 & under had 162 wrestlers
16 & under had 123 wrestlers
Thats 704 total wrestlers
Looking at these numbers and then taking into consideration that on the average each wrestler will have supporting them; Mom, Dad, 1 Sibling, 1 set of Grandparents, which means on the average 5 people supporting them you will have 4,224 individuals attending this tournament. Not to mention the coaches, referees, table workers, concession workers, and then the host school people. I am sure this would then put the number well in excess of 4,500 individuals. Granted with the ridiculous idea of starting the 14 and 16 under ages later you were trying to lower this number but I think you were wrong. As most of these kids and those who are supporting them were showing up within 1 to 1 1/2 hours after the start of the younger age groups. It's hard for me to think that there is not a facility in this District that would not have been bigger and more suitted for this many people. Lets not forget more save.

Secondly, Whoever came up with the idea of starting the 14 and 16 age groups after the younger ages needs to come to Topeka and check themselves into Mennigers as I believe there is a bad mental problem there. It all started with the Sub-District at Holton where the 14 and 16 ages did not get finish until around 6:45pm. Then it got even worse at Ottawa today. We did not get started until around 2:00 pm for the 14 and under with the 16 and under starting after 2:30 pm. Which lead to the completion of the 16 and under around 9:00 pm. For those of you who had to drive a distance I felt bad for you.

Third, the idea of having the 14 and under only on a half mat was extremely insane. I believe that at this age level most of the individuals are either in the 8th grade or 9th. Therefore, for this whole year they have been on a full mat until this District tournament. Guess what, there was a tremendous amount of out of bounds called today for the 14 and under. Way to go guys you really are helping promote High School wrestling!

Last, let me comment on the officiating at this tournament. I thought that at the State tournament in Wichita I had seen more inconsistency from one ref to another, but I was wrong. The inconsistency at this tournament was the worse I have seen all year long. I guess this is because there is a lack of officials, therefore it has become that, Hey if you can pass a test then you know all there is to being an official. Also if you know the coach of an individual, good, then if that coach hollers something he must be right no matter if you seen it or not. Case in point is a match that I watched where the coach hollers that wrestler A hit wrestler B with his forearm in the face, then 3-5 seconds later the ref blows his whistle and awards wrestler B, 1 point. Or better yet, if that coach whom you know pretty good hollers clasp hands, it doesn't matter that yes it's clasp hands but standing and holding in a bear hug I didn't think clasp hands was against the rule. But I know you past a test therefore you are the expert or your buddy would not lie now would he? No I don't blame the coach for hollering, but if it's going to be that the officials can not block out the Coaches and yes the fans to what is being said, then I strongly urge those officials to hang it up. As you are going to be the downfall of such a great sport.

I know some of you who have read this, and hopefully those officials who are the guilty ones that read this are going to say that I am just complaining due to the fact that my son took second, and that I need to blame it on someone else and not the fact that maybe my son is not the best. Well I say that's ok. That just tells me that you, in your everyday life at home and at work cannot and will not accept constructive criticism. I only hope that enough people that agree with me will read this, and echo my thoughts so a better thought process can take place in the future years. This way in the future years we all can get home before 10 pm, 11 pm, or even worse midnight.

Topmiller, I understand your frustration on returning home about midnight. I would have hated that too. Last year my family had different but a similiar frustrating experience at the State tournament. My son qualified by finishing fourth in his first year at ten and under. His qualifying was a pleasant surprise to us. At State, he was pinned early in the first period in his first match by the No. 1 seed who went on to finish 1st. We then had to wait to about noon to find out that we would not wrestle again until the next morning. The winners went on to wrestle three matches that day before the first round losers could wrestle their second match. We traveled back to KC and he lost his second match the next day. This happened to 4 wrestlers in many brackets. This too was very frustrating to my family and I'm sure to other families.

Your post has brought this back into my mind now that the State tournament is a week away. I registered my complaints to tournament directors and officials last year and one of the reasons given was to shorten the last day for the finalists, the tournament workers and the families that would have to travel back so far that day. They asked me if I had any suggestions to shorten the tournament. It was only my son's second time at State and he has never won a match there so I did not have a lot of insight. About the only thing I could think of was to limit the qualifers to the first three from district, or to utilize the Washburn gym for the older kids.

Another issue this brings up in my mind now though especially after reading your post is are we trying to do to much with this competition by bring the high school kids into it. I mean especially once you get past the 14 and unders. I can see where that age group still makes some sense since you still have the 8th graders who are in that group and most freshman probably did not participate in the high school state tournament. My son is in the 5th grade but projecting I'm not sure we see him participating in Kids once he is past the 9th grade. I'm not sure how good it is to mix 16 and 17 years old in a practice facility with 6 to 12 years old kids either. I know they can probably learn some from watching them but there is also some greater potential for a dangerous accident on the mat. I mean they are bigger and faster. When the olders kids wrestle they take up more room and can fall fast and hard on to younger kids. I think it can also stretch coaching resources for most clubs.

I know the 16 and unders have probably been participating this way for years but what do you think? Are we trying to do too much by having this age group and the 6 and unders at District?
Would a separate tournament for the 6 and unders make more sense? I do not have a lot of experience with this since I only have one wrestler, but it seems to me we are maybe trying to do too much. What do you think?

I have to say I thought it was pretty bad at Ottawa also. Especially the half mat for some of the 14 year olds. My thoughts on the 14 & 16 is that I think there are just to many weight classes for that age. Most are like you say 8th to maybe juniors they don't have near that many different weights. I am sure somebody who has all the stats could sit down and come up with something better for everyone. They should know exactly which brackets and age and weights don't fill half a bracket at state. For example 14 and under 70 and 16 under 95, they have to wrestle heavier in school any way. Doesn't make since to have only a couple people year in and year out in so many brackets. I think if they combined weights they could save alot on the numbers and I was just using those weights as an example. I personaly feel anytime you can have lets say 1-18 record for example and take 2nd at state with your 1 win which has happened because there were only three in a bracket. What is the point. I personally feel it takes away from the sport. As for the refs I was in both gyms alot and I think the 16 year olds definately had the worst, glad my son was at 14&under. Even when they made a bad call, they were at least consistent at it and you could figure out what to expect. I walked over to watch a good 16 year old match and witnessed a ref looking around in the stands while they were wrestling. To bad he missed a heck of a match.

I have to say I thought it was pretty bad at Ottawa also. Especially the half mat for some of the 14 year olds. My thoughts on the 14 & 16 is that I think there are just to many weight classes for that age. Most are like you say 8th to maybe juniors they don't have near that many different weights. I am sure somebody who has all the stats could sit down and come up with something better for everyone. They should know exactly which brackets and age and weights don't fill half a bracket at state. For example 14 and under 70 and 16 under 95, they have to wrestle heavier in school any way. Doesn't make since to have only a couple people year in and year out in so many brackets. I think if they combined weights they could save alot on the numbers and I was just using those weights as an example. I personaly feel anytime you can have lets say 1-18 record for example and take 2nd at state with your 1 win which has happened because there were only three in a bracket. What is the point. I personally feel it takes away from the sport. As for the refs I was in both gyms alot and I think the 16 year olds definately had the worst, glad my son was at 14&under. Even when they made a bad call, they were at least consistent at it and you could figure out what to expect. I walked over to watch a good 16 year old match and witnessed a ref looking around in the stands while they were wrestling. To bad he missed a heck of a match.

We all become frustrated at times with the way things are run, officiating, etc. but...I offer the following thoughts. One, there are very few facilities that can comfortably host a tournament of this size. Money and availability become factors. Second I would welcome every club to go to the yearly planning meeting in October. This is where we vote on officers, tourney sites, etc. I was there and only one or two clubs is willing to host a tournament like this. Everyone wants to look at the faults, and yes there are some but very few are williing to put in the work to host a district tournament. As for officiating I was a referee for 8 yrs. and refereed at the high school state level as well as kids, and kids is by far more difficult. The same conditions that you have went to great lenghts to detail how terrible they were, effect the referees. I.E. people right in the mats, too close conditions, extremely long tournaments, etc.

I only ask that we realize that everyone is trying to provide for these kids, until you have hosted a tournament of this nature or refereed at this level you have no real understanding. Is it frustating, you bet! Were the conditions crowded, you bet! Were mistakes made, you bet! I only suggest that we all continue to try to make things better, and that if you really believe that you could do it better come to the meeting next October and volunteer.

Hi guys, one of the benefits that I have seen after being in Nebraska,Iowa and California since leaving Kansas has been comparing how youth tournaments are ran.

Kansas by far has the most dedicated state directors,staff, better wrestlers and families but we could use some of the tournament organization techniques used in Nebraska specifically. They do the staggered split times with age groups--and it goes really well, the research behind it has it pretty much bracketed as far as time needed for each division and time spent waiting is pretty nill

Here in Cali,,it is a nightmare, officals are unpaid and there is a free for all attitude, Iowa & CA they bullpen the kids and run the brackets all the way through.

I think we should appreciate the hard work that goes in to it and just adjust as much as possible,,i am sure district directors are more than open for any input,,we appreciate their hard work

Yes, the District tourney was crowded and some mats sizes were small (but larger than the State required minimums). As was suggested, we welcome any help and your attendance at the October meeting.

At that meeting in 2001, everyone was reluctant to volunteer their facility to host the Districts. Ottawa reluctantly offered themselves to by sacrificed as did Jackson County. Ottawa has hosted Districts, several times in the past and everyone was fully aware of the limitations that their facility has. But apparently, the clubs of the District were willing to accept them, all for a shorter drive.

What do we do about the problem? Granted the 6 year olds add to the already congested gyms. Do we move to a 2-day tournament? Do we eliminate some weight classes? Do we vote for a facility that can manage the logistics in spite of where it is in the District? Whatever your answers are to these questions ... let your club directors know.

The WRESTLING was exceptional! We try to do the best we can, with what we have to work with! Or more precisely to the point, we do the best with what the District VOTES for.

Ottawa ... should be applauded in their effort to step forward when very few would.

Randy Hinderliter

Consider having the District I championship at a permanent place i.e. Johnson County Athletic Center which is large and can fit 10 whole mats.
There could be revenue sharing among the district teams from the profits of the tournament with money also going back to the district to help with expenses.

I arrived in Ottawa at 6:10 a.m. and left at 8:11 p.m. Last week at Holton also was a long day, but for tournaments of this size you have to expect that. Yes, both touraments could have been run better. All tournaments could be ran better. When it comes down to it you do the best
you can with the cards that you are delt. You can
complain about the mat size for some 14 and unders
and in the ideal world everyone would have a full mat. If they had gone with 3 mats instead of four that would have probably added about 2 hours of wrestling in that gym.
Ottawa is a central location and I did vote for the tournament to be held there. I did not think that there was a beter alternative. In the past
Pittsburgh has bid for this and they probably have
the best facility to hold this tournament, but who from NE Kansas want to drive 4 hours to get to a District Tournament. The same can be said for the people in the south driving to Holton.
Yes there are facilitys that could hold this tournament but they would not be economical for
this tournament. Places like the Expo Centre, Washburn University, ect. come with big price tags
to rent. Half of the proceeds for this tournament go to the district so Ottawa did't make a great deal on the tournament.
I think that next year we will not have the 6 year olds so that will help a graet deal.
As far as the 16 year olds, many of us have spent
thousands of hours developing kids, why should we eliminate them for the sake of shortening our tounament. Our younger kids enjoy watching our older kids. They learn from them. They want to wrestle like them when they get older.
As far as officals are concerned I did see some bad calls. I have yet to go to a wrestling tournament where I did't see some bad calls. I think what bothered me more was the lack of decorum that coachs showed. If they did't agree with a call they were screaming at the referee. I saw this go on about 10 times during the day. I never saw an upset coach go to the table and calmly ask the referee why he called it that way.
It's easy to complain. If you want to do something about it then get involved. I think
you'll find it rewarding, I also think you'll find out the answers aren't always as easy as they seem.
Both Jackson County and Ottawa put on tournaments that are hard to host and my hat is off to them for putting on good tournaments.

We have been to the District 1 championships in Ottawa several times. Up until this year, they have done a pretty good job, their facility is just not large enough. Part of the problem we see is that the 6 and under championships really need to be held on a different day, perhaps Sunday, or in a different facility, possibly a middle school gym? The little ones usually have at least 10 relatives per kid watching them! It was just too crowded, my son wrestled in the afternoon, but when we arrived at about 10:30, there was nowhere to sit or walk for that matter. So we chose the floor, that or stand. We also were ones who had to deal with the one-half mat, which was a disadvantage. I thought it was odd that the 14 and under 80 pounders had a whole mat though, that didn't seem to make much sense. If the 6 and unders were held somewhere else, the 8, 10 and 12 year olds would be done sooner and therefore, the 14's and 16's could have whole mats. These are just suggestions. Ottawa as I said usually does a really good job, but their facility just wasn't large enough this year.

All I can say was it was too crowded

I am not faulting Ottawa for the mistakes made at this District Tournament. Yes I am sure that with so much to do and such little numbers of individuals that are willing to help that it is a hard job. I do commend Ottawa for stepping up to the plate and hosting this tournament. My first suggestion is getting notices out to everybody, including the parents of the wrestlers about your October meeting. I had figured, that a meeting took place to discuss these issues but was unaware that everyone is invited to attend. Now if this is not true please advice me. As I had stated at the end of my posting some people will look at this as just complaining about the issues. Well I guess after reading some of the replies and how delicately some of you have stated your thoughts I was right. I in no way am trying to put fault on one individual or organization. I was trying to suggest that it's time to start thinking OUT OF THE BOX as this great sport is growing everyday and what you have done in the past will not work in the future if we hope to keep the growth continuing.

Mr. Hinderliter I have received your e-mail and first let me apologize for the rudely comment of checking into Menningers. As you can see I posted my comments at 12:31 am, which I should have waited until Sunday morning therefore my frustrations would have calmed down a little. Then I would have made more reasonable comments. I am sure your team does the best with the hand you are dealt with. In my business life I have always followed the saying of “If you keep on doing what you have always done, your going to get what you have always got.” Therefore I strongly belief that change is inevitable for us to continue the growth.

“Husker fan” I believe that there is no way you should eliminate the 14 and 16 age groups as a majority of these kids have been participating since they were 6 to 8 years old. I think doing that would be a big mistake. However I do agree with “dice55” in looking into using the KSHAA weight classes for these two age groups. Looking at the KSHAA classes versus Kid classes there are 6 extra weight classes. My suggestion is reduce the classes down to the following:
100, 110, 120, 125, 130, 135, 140, 145, 150, 160, 170, 185, 215, 245, 275
This would bring the number of weight classes down to 1 more than what the KSHAA has for high school. This I believe would help in reducing some time at these tournaments. I agree with “someone” who stated that the younger kids enjoy watching the older kids. I also believe that this is a great opportunity to help promote the sport as most of the younger kids do want to wrestle like the older ones, therefore eliminating them would do more harm than good for the sport. Yes at practices it does get crowded but with good coach's they will ensure that accidents don't happen. If your club is big maybe practices should be split with the older kids practicing at different times than the younger ones.

“Coachdad” I don't think at any point did I mention I could do a better job. But being the fact that I was unaware of the meeting in October I was commenting on how much thought process is put into these tournaments. I am sure those that do attend are trying to do the best job possible, but are those individuals looking OUT OF THE BOX for solutions or is it the MONEY issue. I however do think your comment on money and availability becoming factors is correct. As “Jackson” stated the Johnson County Athletic Center can fit 10 whole mats. If not this facility, then maybe another. Or, keep it at Ottawa but utilize the Junior High School gym also. With it being so close to the high school I can see where a tremendous amount of time could be reduced if it was utilized. But from what I had heard the reason for not using the Junior High gym was the lack of getting mats from other schools. But if it is because of workers maybe do like the state tournament and require each club to be responsible for working at this tournament. On the money issue if my memory serves me correctly the entry fee for the district tournament for the past three years has been at $12.00 per individual. With everything in the world, prices do go up every year, therefore why has this figure stayed the same. I suggest taking it to $15.00, which would add an additional $2,112 to the district from just the 704 wrestlers that attended the tournament this past Saturday. Having 65 clubs, number shown on list from web site, I would suggest that if each club was required to contribute a required amount, such as $200 for example which would bring in $13,000, from some sort of fund raising effort you could help offset the cost of having this tournament. Or better yet, why not try to produce a program for this tournament that will generate income from advertisements in the program. Or possibly looking at the College football Bowl idea and look into acquiring some corporate sponsorship for this tournament. These I just a few off the top of my head suggestions, which I am sure if people would start thinking about how to improve next years tournament now instead of in October you would see a great improvement.

On the officiating issue, after thinking about it for a while maybe the cause for the inconsistency is fatigue. I do understand that it can and does become difficult at the kids tournament. But looking at the fact that these individuals have worked a long day just as us fans have spent a long day maybe finding ways to help shorten the tournament could help out in this matter.

With all this said I only hope that we don't accept the fact, as it seems that “someone” has put it that we should just expect the long day. I truly believe if everyone would stop and critique ourselves we could find a better way to accomplish the goals that are set out. I do commend the Directors, their staff, and the workers at this tournament along with Ottawa for their dedication and hard work.

If the 6 and under district championships were not held yesterday the tournament would have had another 1/2 of a mat. Would that have made much difference - probably not.

As the parent of a 6 and under and 12 and under wrestler the 6 and unders being at another facility would not work. Imagine coaches and parents going from one school to another! Not to mention the cost. Do 10 people really show up to watch 6 and under kids wrestle? I doubt it but if that many people want to go sit in a hot, crowded, noisy gym all day to watch a few minutes of a 6 year old wrestling - that's great!

And as for doing away with the 6 and under championships - my wrestler finished a great season yesterday and got a trophy and without the pressure of moving into the 8 and under brackets for State. Yesterday was his "State". No one will care when he is older (and HE may not even remember)that he was district champion at 6 and under but today he is proud of his trophy and bracket. I say let them have their time!

As indicated by Randy in an earlier post - not many clubs want to host this tournament. Ottawa did the best they could with the space they had. If anyone has any better facilities, go to the District and offer to host next year. But there are ALWAYS going to be people who are unhappy with the tournament. We all need to remember that everyone involved in kids wrestling VOLUNTEERS their time.

Congratulations to all who made it to State!

I agree with Topmiller that we should think outside the box here. I believe considering whether we should have a 16 & Under division in Kids wrestling is thinking outside the box. I did not say to drop 14 & under, maybe just 16 and under. I am not sure that just because kids have been wrestling since they were 6 to 8 years old or that many of the coaches and others have invested thousands of hours to develop them and want to see them more in action are quite good enough to keep this division active. Remember they have their high school season. We adults and our children have the opportunity to watch them there. I really do not believe that they should be mixed with the younger kids in practice due to the safety issue. I know you can have separate practice sessions but just like we are trying to shorten the time for the district and state tournaments for the participants, coaches, workers, and spectators, how can I ask our hard working coaches to devote more of their time by doing extra practice sessions especially at this time of the year when everyone is starting to wear out. I wonder how many of these older wrestlers really want to do this after an exhausting high school wrestling season? Could this be a case of it is really being done more for the adults? My high school experience was with football and I cannot imagine going back to a
CYO season after our high school season was over.

Wrestling Mom, I agree that it is a great experience for the six year old and his family. I also agree that it probably does not add 10 people to the audience, and that you probably only lose 1/2 a mat. But it also takes extra planning, table workers, referees and coaching time which can be critical with two gyms being used. We had a 6 year old in our club who participated and won. I enjoyed watching him and seeing him and his family enjoy his medal and winning. But the question is what do we do to make this a shorter wrestling day. And I think that is a worthy goal. The worst aspect of wrestling in the five years that my son has participated is the length of some of these tournamemts. I know a lot of people feel the same way and I hope we do find some out of the box thinking to work on this problem. I think some of you have made some good suggestions already. Maybe the first step is just to admit we really do have a problem that should be addressed and not just accepted as that is what wrestling is about.

I just wanted to reply to somethin that dice55 said. My brother is wrestling 12u, 68lbs right now, and next year her will probably be at 14u, 70lbs. I really wouldn't like to see him have to wrestle someone who is 6 lbs.( i don't know, i'm just guessing) heavier than he is, espically at state where it is very important. I understand what you are saying, but i think that kids that are at lower wieghts would have a disadvantage, and it wouldn't be fair.

I, for one, truly appreciate the worthwhile discussion on this topic and others. It often seems toward the end of the year, that these topics come to the forefront. Exactly why, I have long discussed having a Spring meeting of the District. In fact we did have one two years ago. It was attended by three clubs.

I try to stimulate discussion on these topics in the Fall meeting ... but by then ... people have forgotten. At this years District meeting (attended by about 150), after the vote for Ottawa and the vote for maintaining the split format, I warned those in attendance to expect a long day. Granted, we might have been able to shave 45 minutes, maybe even an hour! And I don't know what the time costs would have been with only going with 6 mats in the afternoon.

I did some calculations on the tourney. We had 14 mats in the morning ... and 7 in the afternoon. In the 8U we held 217 matches. 10U wrestled 212, 12U had 237, 14U was our biggest with 258, 16U wrestled 189, and the 6U we had 147 matches. That makes a total of 1,260 matches. I figure that is a substantial day even if we held Districts in a facility that could hold 10 full mats. I think, that is 126 per mat ... a long day by any standard.

If we have 4,000 spectators as suggested by Mr. Miller (by the way, I kept my appointment today, and they confirmed your suspicions .... lol) it takes a heck of a facility. Some very good ones have been offered ... and I welcome facts and figures on them. But I do know, there are issues such as rent, concessions being under contract, and lack of seating that would have to be addressed. Something I am willing to look into, after the season is over, and I have a chance to catch my breath.

Randy