As another season is coming to a close and the State Tournament is upon us, I want to again bring up some changes that I would like to see happen with Kansas High School Wrestling and I encourage others to express their opinion as well. Please do not flood this with national federation rules such as the 5-match rule since we have very little influence in that. We need to get out of the “if it ain’t broken don’t fix it” mode and look for ways to advance the great sport of wrestling in the state of Kansas.

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

1. Kansas high school wrestling weigh-in procedures do not have the health and well-being of our wrestlers in mind. In fact, it promotes unhealthy weight loss and excessive weight loss (Not to mention doubt in opponent weigh ins). Kansas High School Wrestlers are allowed to weigh-in up to 12 hours before they compete. They can cut weight as unhealthy and as terribly as humanly possible and still recover to compete at a high level. They have up to 3 or 4 hours Friday night to make weight for Saturday. The finalists have 24 hours to recover.

Nation Federation rules force wrestlers to have a slow decent in their weight management system. Each week they are only allowed to loss a certain amount. They also weigh in 1 to 2 hours before competition forcing wrestlers either not cut so much weight or do it healthier if they want to compete well. And there is no Friday night weigh in for Saturday, they weigh in Saturday morning and have the semi-finals right after weigh in.

I have seen the effects of both systems and it is my opinion the wrestlers in states that follow the national federation rules on average are bigger, stronger, and healthier than Kansas Wrestlers.

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

2. KSHSAA needs to eliminate the ‘at the same weight from the previous year’ for regional seeding criteria. The number 5 seeding criteria on page 24 of the official KSHSAA Wrestling Manual 2017-2018 actually states “Returning regional champion or runner-up at the same weight from the previous year.”

I cannot believe the KSHSAA actually penalizes a teenage student/athlete for growing. If a young man can make the finals at regionals one year and grows, he can most certainly make the finals again and deserves to be able to use that criteria.

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

3. KSHSAA also needs to eliminate the seeding criteria that states “Contestants with losing records should not be seeded, unless they meet other criteria.” We have several wrestlers every year that qualify for state with losing records. Obviously, since they placed they deserved to be seeded. We have no idea why they have a losing record, maybe they had a slow start acclimating to varsity, maybe they had a tough schedule, maybe they had an injury and tried to wrestle through it. And maybe, just maybe they have not seen any competition in the regional tournament. A wrestler with a record of 19-20 should have the same opportunity to be seeded as one with a record of 20-19. This statement takes all the common sense out of seeding.

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

4. Team scoring should change for wrestlers that receive byes in tournaments. As the rule stands now, if they wrestler wins the next match after a bye they get the advancement points for the bye, if they lose they get nothing. That means if they are on the championship side they get 2 points and if they are on the consolation side they get 1 point.

If they get a bonus point win after the bye they should also get the bonus points for the bye. That means if they get a fall after the bye on the championship side they get 4 points and not just 2 points. If they can get a fall in the 2nd round of a tournament, them they can surly get a fall in the 1st round. This would give some incentive to compete hard and try to get bonus points for those wrestlers that had the unfortunate bad luck of drawing a bye.

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

5. This point was brought up on another thread but all state series matches no matter if they are championship side or consolation side should have 2 minute periods. That is what is best for the sport and the wrestlers. Who cares if it adds some time to the tournament. We need to quit trying to hurry everything up and do what is right.

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

6. We absolutely need 1 site for all State Wrestling Tournaments. The state of Kansas does have the facilities to make it happen, we have cities that have the enough of everything needed. We make all the excuses in the world why we can’t do it instead of figuring out ways to make it work. There are many that do not want to see this to happen and it is all personal and selfish reasons. We need to put the selfish reasons aside and do what is best for high school wrestling in Kansas, and having 1 site for all state tournaments is best.

Coach Buckbee
Head Wrestling Coach
Ark City High School

I have been in Missouri for the past 3 years and love the weigh in rules that we do...same as NFHS. Also having all classes in one venue over 3 days is awesome and highlights the sport much better.

I would love to see an all class state tournament! Salina would be a nice central site for all to travel to and the town should be able to handle such an event. It would be great to be able to watch wrestlers that you can't with the current format being in three locations. Grow the sport! This would allow a lot of people to talk the sport of wrestling and create new avenues of friendships and connections. Just my two cents. Wichita or Topeka would be options also, just not as centrally located as Salina. Good luck to all at State!

Is there anybody on earth that thinks this is a good criteria? If so could you please post?

I’ve never heard a valid argument for this criteria. The only rare exception might be a 106 ,(mostly underclassmen), jumping up to 160. But by regionals that 160 would have proved himself if requesting a seed .

I do several seeding meetings a year. I think there are misconceptions with this rule. The problem is solved with 2 questions before every weight.

1. Does any winning record not want seeded?
2. Has any losing record beat anybody in the bracket with a winning record?
Those questions almost eliminate coaches trying to place kids on the bracket.

A person with a losing record becomes seedable if they have beaten somebody in the bracket with a winning record. That meets, “common opponent”, criteria.
Example. Sam is 13-2, Sam lost to Jon who is 13-15. Jon, therefore has earned a seed on the bracket. That seed may or may not be higher than Sam’s, dependent on others criteria in the bracket. But Jon is in the seedable conversation.

Example 2
Mike, 12-20, beats Jon 13-15. Mike is not seedable because he has not beaten anybody in the weight with a winning record.

We seeded 12 deep at regional. I don’t see a reason to seed more than that. That seeding debate most likely would not have a definitive solution. Seeding more would allow savvy coaches to “place”, kids on the bracket. Neither of those are healthy for a seeding meeting or my old ticker!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B40rUpeyFNgkMWlYRmlIdGxoYlRTRGxTRVhMVkpNc3U0US1R/view?usp=sharing

Here is a picture of the 2018 Nebraska State Tournament. All 4 Classes in one location. I agree, KS needs to do the same. Nebraska also has Dual State next weekend.

Example 3
George, 19-20 has no common opponents and no head to head against Brian, 20-19. Brian is seedable and George is not? That is absolutely wrong!

And why seed 12? Why is that the magic number? Why not 11 or 13? If there are only 4 placers than seeding 12 is too many.

It is not a magic number at all. The seeds are earned. Earned by current rules.

I think the fewest seeds at regional was 6, and we had many weights where we had 9 or more, all the way up to 11.

We seeded 2 wrestlers with losing records. One was seeded third and did not place. One was seeded 5th and placed 3rd. We had one unseeded wrestler with a losing record place. Two kids qualify with a losing record from the region.

Although rare, through the years we have seeded several kids with losing records in a “weak” weight class to attempt to get the four best kids to state from our region. Wrong or right, the coaches decided at that meet that was what is best for the kids and the region. We required a unanimous vote from all head coaches. Every now and then common sense prevails!!!!!!

Your argument confuses me Greg. 11 is too many to seed. Seed losing records.
I believe that conflicts?

Also 3a is different animal. We had 23 teams this year, and sometimes more than that. We have 32 man brackets some years. In our case seeding losing records rarely makes sense.

First of all Harry, there is absolutely no conflict! You yourself just posted that you seeded a losing record 3rd which is less than 11.

You all so posted that you have seeded losing records to get the best wrestlers to the state tournament. That is my point exactly, get the best wrestlers to state out of the regionals. KSHSAA should eliminate that statement so you are not breaking their rules in the seeding meeting.

I also believe that common sense should prevail all the time not just some of the time, but when you have certain coaches that only want to win the seeding meeting and not the tournament they use statements in the KSHSAA manual to their advantage.

It is awesome In Nebraska having all four in one location. It is rough though to purchase tickets for all classes as they run A and D together and B and C together and separate sessions until they hit the semi finals. State dual tournament Is great as well. I will be there this weekend. Go Longhorns!!

I am in that picture!

We seeded a losing record third because he had beaten a winning record. And that winning record had beaten the other two winning records. And the coaches agreed. Only 6 were seeded in that weight.

The reward for getting seeded 8 or 9, 16, is getting to see the first seed.
The reward for getting seeded 7, 10 or 15 is getting to see the 2nd seed, etc

In 30+ years I can recall one kid at regionals placing from the 9 seed.
3 from the 7 or 10 seed. Quick math tells me that by my memory at regionals 4 kids have qualified for state from my regional, from the 7,8,9,10 seed since 1984. That is about one in every 2000 kids.

I think that information speaks pretty soundly to not spend hours in a seeding meeting over kids with losing records. I think it speaks to the amazing accomplishment a few kids managed through the years. In most cases battles over seeds above 7 are coaches trying to eake out two to five team points, or a win for a deserving kid.

References: My memory and estimated math in my nugget. Neither of which can withstand a well thought out and fact riddled reply!!!

I also believe those numbers may not even be relevant with the current 5-6A format, placing 8 of 16. I don’t know.

" Kansas, we can better for Wrestling & Wrestlers!"

I know this is in the HS thread but if you are looking at KS Wrestling and/or National, and/or International Wrestling and the well being of wrestlers - AGE appropriate DEVELOPMENT needs to be in the discussion big time. Belts, Trophies, traveling etc - Those are not helping growing the sport in a responsible manner - NO WAY. Youth Activity numbers get artificially inflated for a short period of time but athletes through attrition - youth are getting out earlier and earlier and do not stay involved as long. 5th -8th grade growth, recruitment, and development needs to be in the discussion big time - Not Diaper Nationals.

Does Kansas need 4 classes? Is class wrestling watering down the sport so much, that KS is not developing its wrestlers to a high level as a result of the low threshold set to qualify, place or win. Come on, we cant argue about the 9 seed at a regional with a losing record. He has a losing record for a reason. Anyway maybe two classes, wrestlers would be pushed more to place and as a result become a better wrestler and compete better at the National level. Also, 2 classes solves the silly lets have a state tournament at 3 locations. Put it in one location and bring everybody together to see what they got. Don't need this silly turf war about which class is better.