I know this is a battle that has been fought for a long time, but there has to be some way to improve it.

We hosted our first novice tournament, and I was dumbfounded by the number of kids that were entered or tried to be entered in the NOVICE tournament that were definitely not novice. We had a few wrestlers who competed won matches and one who even placed in folkstyle state last year in Topeka entered into the novice tournament. They entered them as average wrestlers so there was no trigger to look at their profile. We had one club who was honest and entered their wrestler as a state qualifier, we pulled his profile, seen he had won a match at state last year and did not allow him to participate, but after watching the tournament we started pulling profiles and found another one who placed at folkstyle state in the tournament. There was also individuals who are winning multiple opens as well as making the finals in the open division of tournaments like Park City last week entered in the Novice tournament. We had a couple wrestlers get hurt by one particular wrestler that had over 45 wins on his profile ( many of those wins were from big open tournaments).

I have began the process of going through some of the wrestlers that were idenfied as Non Novice due to their success in opens or even state qualifiers and placers. I am contacting their club contact to see if they were aware that these wrestlers are being entered into novice tournaments which is doing nothing but hurting the sport.

I know that many times the most aggressive wrestlers in the younger Novice is going to win more which is fine, but when they are hitting moves that many advanced kids don't hit well then they don't need to be in Novice.

Lance Geyer
Hays Wrestling Club

It has always seemed to me, the tournaments who run Open and Novice divisions side by side in a particular age group, and do not allow double-dipping between the divisions, have less problems. Of course some tournaments prefer to run the two divisions in different sessions in order to increase entries.

I would agree with that. The thing that is frustrating is they don't enter the open on Saturday but drive on Sunday to wrestle Novice.

Thanks for addressing this never ending problem Lance. I was at the far end of the gym yesterday when I thought I saw an official show the optional start sign to the bottom wrestler so I made my way down there and sure enough a 2nd time seconds later optional start again when he was up like 9-0 . Kid was out front with a snake in deep and had him on his back before the bottom wrestler knew what hit him. I felt sorry for the kid, obviously dad in this case, was the one who put him there. Not his fault someone made a bad choice entering him there.

There was wrestler at Newton's novice tournament that had a over 70 matches with 49 pins! Also a placer at folk style state last year. Hard to understand what is to be gained by competing against first year kids, some of which were stepping onto the mat for the first time.

I pulled the Newton results, and I am assuming you may be talking about one of the same youths that attended ours. I have contacted their club and was informed that the family doesn't go through their club to enter tournaments, but rather calls the host club directly to enter, and enters the wrestler as an average wrestler. All fo what? Between the Newton Novice and and our Novice this wrestler has wrestled less than 2 minutes with 6 pins. 😡

Couldn’t agree more Lance. Seems the definition of Novice needs to be clarified. Glad to see you’re addressing it.

Jesse Pfortmiller,
Pburg Kids Wrestling Club

I have decided that we would be better off without the dedicated novice division. As a club director explaining to people when is a good time to move from novice has always been my biggest headache. I have a pretty simple rule, 2 years max in novice then its time to be open. People make way to big of deal about moving their kids into the open division. It would seem that operating tournaments with Trackwrestling, we should be able to separate kids better. That being said, people entering the kids need to be honest and know what the level of the kid being entered is. If we would eliminate the novice division then wouldn't there be more inexperienced kids to wrestle each other in the tournaments. If we had a standardized ranking system that was set in Trackwrestling for us to use would that help separate the 1st yr kid from the state placer? Below is a ranking system for a tournament our club attends that doesn't call itself an open or a novice. Its simply a tournament and they want everyone to attend. Using the ranking system is crucial to get the kids in the right brackets. From what I can tell it seems to work pretty good. Just a thought as I have had lots of conversations about this over the years.

A= State qualifier
B= Good (usually places)
C= Experienced
D= Beginner 1st year

What is frustrating it is common sense to me. My two older boys (8) and (7) both wrestle in 8U. My 8 year old is in his third full year. I will continue to put him in novice tournaments because that’s where his ability level is. Last year we wrestled nearly every week and he won a total of 3 matches with the majority of matches taking place at novice tournaments. He enjoys it but the sport moves really fast for him. My 7 year old is also in his third year and he does quite well. I quit allowing him to enter on the novice side about halfway through last year. If you want to get better you have to face the competition that best fits your kids. My 8 year old gets nothing out of getting pinned in 15 seconds in an open bracket and my 7 year old does not get any better pinning 4 kids in a novice bracket. It shouldn’t be this hard 🤦‍♂️

I have never liked the novice idea. My son never wrestled in novice. Once he was out of 6U. It was open only. I did not wrestle him at very many tournaments that first year of 8U. He went to practice and learned. I knew he wasn't quite ready mental/physically. As the season went on he wanted to go to more tournaments. So I entered him and he got beat down a lot. He came back and wanted to do it again. He was never forced by me. Always made it his choice to go to a tournament. By the time Sub- Districts (when Sub-Districts mattered) came he was able to qualify for Districts. Got beat out at Districts. Next year he ended up win the State Title at 8U 125. My son is still wrestling now in high school. Getting beat down will not hurt your kid. It will only make them stronger. Just my opinion and thought on Novice. Just get rid of Novice all together. Let the kids and parents decide if what is best.

Josh Parker

I think all that has replied has valid points. I think it boils down to clubs, coaches and parents being honest and not to be trophy hunters. We are trying to grow the sport not kill it. I have always been the one saying get rid of Novice all together, but over the past few years have seen some novice Wrestlers turn into pretty solid wrestlers, but would have probably quit the sport of they would have got pinned in 15 seconds every match their first year. Problem is now some of these novice wrestlers are still getting pinned in 15 seconds by state placers in a novice tournaments. All so that the state placers parents can put on Facebook that their son/daughter took first this weekend. Not very often do they show the medal or the plaque that says 1st place novice tournament. Plain and simple quit living vicariously through your kids and let them wrestle the division they should be in.

Rant over 😉😉

Lance Geyer

Lance, I respect your stance here and the position you took not allowing our Liberal wrestler to participate on Sunday. I've nothing to hide. I am sure there are some who will shake their head at me entering the kid in the Hays novice tournament so I will give context to the situation. Our club kid was a 6U last year in his first year of wrestling. He entered the 8U state series and advanced through districts without winning a match (default advance with only four kids in the division at districts). He beat another 6U age kid in the 8U state tournament with a 5-11 record (and likely another kid who wouldn't be at state but given the thinly populated, light weight division.....). Furthermore, the Liberal wrestler is a sub .500 W/L and placed 4th in a novice division in TX a week before Hays. The fear of an uproar over a "state qualifier" with a win at state wasn't worth it for Lance being subjected to criticism and I can't fault him one bit. We disclosed "state qualifier" and Lance/their board made the call, which is fine. I stand by the premise this kid belongs in a novice division in his second year, sub .500 and has just one 1st place finish at a smaller tournament. I guess lesson learned our club should refrain from sending first year wrestlers to the state series unless they are a freak.

Even written guidelines for novice will probably be ignored by a few bad actors - someone rating their kid as "average" with a 56-11 record and a 6th place finish at the state series after winning their district lacks either common sense or integrity. I noticed Great Bend posted in the forum for their tournaments, "The novice brackets are for 1st and 2nd year wrestlers with fewer than 5 tournament wins (Novice and Open Combined). If your wrestler has won 5 or more tournaments they must enter the open bracket." I believe that is being generous and I would be of the opinion that three 1st place finishes is plenty enough to force a kid into open divisions instead of novice.

Lance, might I suggest as Jesse Pfortmiller alluded. Give some clarification for your "novice" definition with the respective tournament flyer if you host one again next year. Give it some teeth too! "all matches will be forfeited if found in violation of the novice definition set forth."
JMHO, 2 years max, no state placers and fewer than three 1st place finishes in any tournaments to enter the novice tournament (a 3rd win kicks them out of novice).

Lastly, thank you for hosting a novice only tournament although some don't agree with the premise of novice tournaments. We had three kids who made the long six hour round trip and it was worth it for the experience they gained on Sunday.

9 novice tournament wins, 2 open wins, and 1 second place in open in less than 2 years is not novice. But That’s what one of our kids wrestled at the novice in hays. I mean the kid has a tournament win and a second place already this year in open. But the parents still entered him in Hays and travelled quite the distance to wrestle in it. They listed him as above average. I mean that’s a legit ranking if he was entered in open but when you are entering a novice that’s not a legit ranking when you have that much success. I think we still need novice to grow the sport but we still need to prevent parents of kids like this to stop entering them in novice. If it means they travel and a tournament director is made aware of it then they can make the decision to let them wrestle or not.

I guess I would have to ask why clubs are allowing parents to enter the kids themselves? I thought most, if not all clubs, have the coaches or directors make tournament entries.