I will write more on this topic when I have a bit more time but the question is there.

Is Kansas getting too many certified coaches? We lead the Nation in the number of coaches with over 2,800. In fact it is a bragging point and I think a source of pride. But the question exists, do we have too many, and is it too easy to gain your credentials?

Yes and Yes.

I think all Kids coaches should be required to register with KSHSAA and take the NFHS Part 1 & 2 rules test. At least this way we can have some hope that the coach actually has seen the rule book

Can I take the tests open book, like you were required to do?

Be careful now :rolleyes: I think the number of coaches is a good thing and realize that some people will take the course for a number of reasons. The main one for some parents is the free admission to events. Not a big deal here, but by the time you add up state, National Duals, and Fargo it is a lot cheaper to get the certification than pay admission to all of those events. I think Fargo alone is $80. Some of those parents have no desire to go to the floor, but a knowledgeable fan, who can help in a pinch is not such a bad thing. I see the certification process as an opportunity to teach more about the sport, which is a good thing. I think it was mom4 from Chapman that was talking on the HS thread about teaching an older gentlemen about the rules at a tournament. The more knowledge the better.

My concern with limiting the number of coaches, or making it harder for them, then limits the number of opportunities for the kids. I don’t think that is a positive thing for our sport. There are many sports who have to beg for coaches and wrestling is not unique in this way.

Regarding requiring the HS Certification and testing; I took the test this year for officiating and I don’t care if it is open book, it is hard, much harder than people likely realize. I would support the need to take the test, or even attend the class or so many discussions, (as long as it don’t run potential coaches off) but would not require the passing of that test or membership as a requirement to coach kids. The passing of the test for the Bronze, not Copper, should be the criteria we look at. Meet those criteria and then the individual can learn over the years with experience and continued educational opportunities.

In the kids program right now in my area- I can not honestly tellyou how many coaches we have that are certified. My guess is not near enough. I know that I am certified but can't get to many events and I was told that we have very few that are certified at all. This weekend our kids are split- some in Salina and some in Bennington and we have zero certified coaches attending. It is sad but it is had to find parents willing to send the money to get certified the way it is. If you make them spend more on testing and classes we will have no one interested at all. Small clubs will go under and wrestling will lose kids- I think we are not wanting to go to that

How many of the 2800 KS coaches are actively coaching? That number may be deceiving. If your certification card is good for life the number will only grow instead of fluctuate. Some may coach for life but most fade away after a few years.

I would like to see a tape made for each program and handed out at the beginning of the year. Not one on how to coach really but more of one showing technique and good foundamentals. I would like to have the coaching staff watch the tape so everyone is kinda on the same page from the get go. It would help showing new parents and coaches what is what and why we do what we do

I like what you are saying Scooby and I understand completely. Right now in Chapman there may be 4 or 5 certified coaches for the kids wrestling program but only one or two who make it to the actual tournament events. This is by no fault of the other coaches. Our head wrestling coach is the high school coach and the job duties demands of high school limit the amount of weekend time he has open. We need a few more coaches in this area if we are to succeed. One person can not coach all the kids at a tournament. This weekend, we are also split between Salina and Bennington. To be honest, I don't know how the coaches are going to handle the split. I feel that if something was to be changed, it should be the suggestions Scooby made.
There are several areas in the state of Kansas that are struggling in finding parents willing to devote five months out of the year for wrestling with no pay and huge expenses (gas bill anyone?). To make it more challenging to obtain certification will only make the problem worse.

Yes you can take the test open book. There is a good reason why the test is open book. That reason is because the NFHS probably realizes that many officials even the state level ones will open up their rule book and read the rules just to confirm what they already have in their mind. I use the test every year to refresh my mind and make absolutly sure that I am on par with the written rules.

However MANY MANY coaches at the kids level have never even SEEN the rules book let alone read through it. And this leads to a lot of coaches getting upset and saying that some official "screwed" their kid, when that isn't really the case. When I started officiating I got a real quick wake up call as to how much I did not know when I coached the year before that. It was amazing to me how much you actually do have to know. And I wrestled for 11 years before I ever started coaching and then officiating.

So yes take the test open book, read through the whole rule book, and I think everyone will benefit from it.

I don't believe that just anyone out there is "qualified" to coach. be it in wrestling, football, baseball or whatever the sport. There are many people who, like myself, love coaching kids and have a strong sense of what it takes to become a better athlete,individual,and overall person, but do not have the "experience" in a particular sport to be as knowledgeable as needed for certain situations. This comes with education, experience, and time. Personally, I bought my coaches card at the beginning of the season due to my own desire to learn more about the sport of wrestling and because I love the kids, love the sport, and want to help out in any way possible. I was brand new to the sport last year and learned quite a bit from just watching everyday in practice and with helping my sons at home learn more about what they were being taught in the wrestling room. I still feel pretty "green" when it comes to helping on the mat with older kids in an open tournament, however, with the younger kids and with novice kids I feel pretty confident that I can coach them effectively. My own experience as a collegiate athlete in a leadership position of a team has helped me in my coaching "career" with all sports that I have coached thus far. I have seen many times (mainly with team sports) a coach/dad who is only coaching the sport for his own kid and thus living through their kid. Personally this behavior disgusts me and I hope and pray that I never do that when I am coaching. This is another reason that I love wrestling for my kids and coaching wrestling for myself. When a different kid other than my own son is on the mat I am coaching, i don't coach them any different than I would coach my own son. I pretty much know the limitations and the strengths of most of the kids on the mat I coach because I am in the practices everyday, and I try my best to help them see those strengths and weaknesses before, during and after each match.

Basically what I am saying is that no matter what a person's "qualifications" may be, through more education and training is beneficial to most anyone to be more "qualified" to coach, however, not just anyone can coach effectively, and its those types of people that would be weeded out if they were to be required to take education and certification testing seriously.

i coach two sports (wrestling and football),even though i try to put just as much in both it seems to be less affective in wrestling when your short on coaches.last year i had 2 coaches and i was on second shift and did not attend many practices and it showed up greatly on the mat. this year i have 7 coaches and still would love to have a few more. not because they are knowledgeable but they are learning right along with the kids and it breeds alot of support,and hopefully more knowledge with in the team and parents

To add "fuel to the fire" I have encountered 2 separate officials at HS events that didn't know:#1 only a 2 count is required for a 2 point nearfall (he insisted it needed to be a 3 count until he asked another offical) and #2 when a defensive wrestler stands up, goes behind, and gains control over the offensive wrestler it's 2 reversal even though the "now defensive" wrestler's hands are not on the mat. Those 2 guys need to read some more! (and both calls were reversed I might add)

I had a the similiar problem on one of my matches when my kid put in a bar arm and ran it to the head. I agree that it was potentialy dangerous but was not illegal. 1 point was taken away. Also another one of our kids hit a reversal when the kid in control was in bounds and the one on the bottom step on foot out when he hit the switch but the kid in contol was still completely in bounds and when the the move was finished both kids were in bounds and reversal was made. Ref called them out and reset them. same ref call stood. I guess are they quilified?

JJD the first situation you described is a judgement of the official. If he felt that your kid took the arm beyond its legal range of motion that he could have and probably should have penalized the kid. If it was potentally dangerous however he should have recognized that the situation was going to escalate to an illegal move, stopped it and reset. But ultimatly it is the wrestlers responsibility to keep moves legal.

Randy, in the original question: Did you mean certified or certifiable? lol

NO. Kansas (or any other state) cannot have too many certified coaches. We need to help those who want to help us and our kids.

Although I would emphasize more about child psychology and rudimentary wrestling techniques. Too many adults are demeaning, while ignoring their responsibility as a role model. "Negative motivation" is far less effective, even detrimental, with kids that have the choice to participate , or not.

It's really tuff to do well and we need help to learn how. Limiting the certifications will only give cause to finding a way to break the rules, i.e., coaching without credentials, etc.

No, it is not too easy to gain your credentials: we intentionally have levels Copper thru Gold.

BUT maybe it is time to evolve and restructure the assignments, i.e., Copper could be limited to assisting the Coaches, and maybe there should be a refresher for Bronze. Moreover, it depends on how we define our learning objectives for the program...

Copper - Coaching awareness; where to find the references/answers (Do no harm)

Bronze - Coaching effectively; knows many answers, and can find the rest (Do some good)

Silver - Coaching efficiently; explains the rationale behind many of the answers (Do lots of good)

Gold - Coaching the coach; teaches others to be efficient (Go be a Coaching Hall of Famer)

Scott, I guess with your post ... it would be a good time to share some concerns.

Last year, Kansas had about 1,700 registered, USAW card holding member, coaches. Over the past decade Kansas has certified over 2,800 coaches at the Bronze level.

Given those numbers it is not too hard to imagine, that we have a few, who probably should not be coaching kids.

A few are "bad apples" and do a lot more harm to kids than good. Clearly, these "coaches" need to be weeded out of the system.

But I know there are a large number of our certified coaches who coach for reasons that I cringe at. The parent, who is only interested in coaching their kid, perhaps is doing a dis-service to the program.

One concern is this! We have a club system in place in Kansas. All wrestlers must be registered with a club in order to enter the State tournament series. However, there is no such requirement for coaches.

I would like to hear from some club leaders! Are people gaining credentials that you as a club, feel do not have the best interest of the program in mind? Do you feel that you are loosing a bit of control over who coaches under the auspices of your club?

Is this a problem and does it need addressed?

I have not met a coach yet who has decided to become certified just so they can coach their own son and no one elses. I have also not met a coach who becomes certified only so they can get in free at District and State tournaments (wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to pay?) I do know of several who were introduced to wrestling by their son or daughter showing an interest at a young age and later decided that they could help out the club by coaching. I know my husband was one of these individuals. When my oldest son was 6 years old, his friend asked if he would be interested in going with him to wrestling practice. He went that first year and loved it. My husband and I started to go to the tournaments and pretty soon, he started to help out a little at practice (mainly in weighing kids, helping keep control, ect.) After a few years, our head coach at that time was needing someone to help out at tournaments and asked my husband. He accepted and attended the certification to get his bronze card. That same year, he started to coach at tournaments not only our son but all of the other kids as well. 8 years later, my husband is still coaching at kids wrestling tournaments. Yes, we have two young kids still in the program but he does not just coach them. He works with all of the kids in the club and loves every minute of it.
I still say that there are a lot of clubs around Kansas that fight to find people who are dedicated to spending every Saturday and plenty of weekday nights in a gym for no pay. Yes there can be bad coaches but you will find them in every sport and in every age group. To make it tougher to be a coach in the kids wrestling program will only be a detriment to many small clubs around the state who already struggle to find coaches. If they can not find dedicated individuals willing to volunteer, they will no longer have a club. If they do not have a club, there would be a huge decline in the number of kids in that area in wrestling. This would then make the junior high and high school programs suffer. It may even make them suffer to the point where the administration decides that it would be simplier if there was only basketball.

Randy,

To answer your last question, Yes! I have seen in the past and even the start of this year, a couple of parents gain coaches cards through the club that should not be coaching and only were getting the coaches card so they could "legally" be on their son's mat when he wrestled. How should the club address this type of situation? Deny the application? This causes discontent and more problems than what it is worth. Apply rules to the club's bylaws requiring a certification in order for the club to sponsor the prospective coach? This starts to limit the coaching staff of a club and could be detrimental to the kids program. There really is no good answer to these questions and I agree that this needs to be addressed in some manner.

I've been around the sport of wrestling for over fifty years. I truly believe it is the best sport for teaching life long lessons. I don't have a son, but in the past I've coached high school, college and helped with the kids club. Now, I'm just a fan.
I believe 99% of the people involved in wrestling are there for the right reasons. I feel sorry any kid that does not have the opportunity to wrestle. I think we should applaud the people who give their time and talents to help kids. The cup isn't empty, it's 99% full. We need to strive for 100%.
With all the above being said, I don't think anyone whose ever coached doesn't wish they had a 'do over'. I think either by words or actions, we have all done something that hasn't been positive for kids. Like the wrestlers on the mat, coaches and parents will make mistakes. Hopefully, we learn from those mistakes.
PROMISE YOURSELF, TO GIVE SO MUCH TIME TO THE IMPROVEMENT OF YOURSELF THAT YOU HAVE NO TIME TO CRITICZE OTHERS.

In the perfect world it would be great to get the Club coaches, Middle school coaches, and High school coaches on the same page. Some of your better high school programs work that way. Kind of a grassroots system.