What Freshman will be dropping in on the 14U division at the Classic and State, names and weights (that they MIGHT be wrestling in the kids division)plz.

Jim:

My son Jacob Nowak just finished his junior varsity season yesterday. He told me yesterday that right now he plans to wrestle for STA club at Subs and thru State if he qualifies. As of yesterday he was not planning on entering the Classic but I think waiting for Subs is too long of a break from competition so maybe myself and a little time will make him change his mind on the Classic which he has wrestled at several times before.

He wrestled at 189 so I guess that means he will be at 205. That is a pretty big spread between 175 and 205!

How does everyone feel about letting those who have wrestled high school varsity all season compete in 14&under against 7th and 8th graders? Missouri does not permit this. Just looking for feedback...

We go through this every year. And every year the majority of us determine that its perfectly okay for freshman to continue to wrestle in kids wrestling. And we do this because we realize that those that are probably going to get beat by these freshman will eventually be freshman and will "wrestle down" in the exact same way and have the same advantage that their once peers had. In essence everyone has their time at the top of the age group.

I can relate to what Nigel said to about each kid having his year "at the top". This is the exact issue that my son faced last year. He was an 8th grader who came up against some very good freshman wrestlers when it came to qualifying and he just knew that next year it would be his turn. He has looked forward to it all year long and is hoping to do very well once he finishes with high school and comes back into kids.

He will be wrestling 14U somewhere between 125 and 135. He has wrestled 125 this year, except for the first dual and the first tournament, way back in December. He has had to, not really cut weight, just watch what he ate a little closer than he would like so he is talking about coming back to kids at 130 or maybe even 135. His name is Nicholas Mueller from Hillsboro.

I very much agree with Nigel...many previous discussions...same conclusions...it's okay and appropriate...age is age, and a reality.

If you were 47 years old and had a good golf swing, would it be fair to tell you that you could not compete in the "45 and over", because you just finished a tournament in the "35 and over"?

Cokeley, are you or do you have a son wrestling 14 and under who is an 8th grader? Although there are exceptions, most every age group is dominated by the kids who are a year older. I for one have welcomed the stiffer competition for my sons because in the long run it pays alot of dividends. Nigel is right! The table always turns.

my son has wrestled the varsity spot @ 140 for West Elk and will wrestle 145/150 for the classic and for kids. He to has looked foward to being the top of his age group this year as well. he also had to drop 10 lbs to get there because his older brother who is 31-2 is a senior, but he will be able to finally do some things against kids his own age after taking some of the beatings against the jr/sr kids. he will probaly not get a good seed at the classic or subs becasue of his record 17/15 but the age and expierance along with the compitition and practice time should show.

What really amazed me last year was some of the 8th graders who either won or were finalists a year ago like Furches, Detmer and Kolmer (actually a 7th grader a year ago). I apologize if I missed mentioning any other 8th grade finalists from last year. Every year it seems like there are those that break thru and do that.

It is difficult though for the majority of the 8th graders to compete against the 9th graders. There is a big advantage to practicing and competing 6 days a week against faster and stronger upper classmen. My son wrestle mostly JV meets this year but he did get in a couple of varsity meets. There is a difference even there between JV competition and varsity competition. You have to get use to a higher level of speed and strength.

It is true that every wrestler will have their time at the top of two year age brackets but our family would have been okay with a change this year of going to a 7th and 8th grade type of bracket and a 9th and 10th grade bracket. My son has wrestled wrestlers from every high school class this year. Because he practiced 5 days a week with the freshman thru seniors, I believe it would be fairer for him to face sophomores and other freshmen in the post season than for him to be competing against 8th graders who did not get the opportunity to practice as often and against older competition.

I have been an advocate of an all grade school State tournament like Missouri has for a number of years. I would like to see a separate post season high school folkstyle competition that our USAW-KS organization would sponspor that could serve as the Grand High School State that so many would like to see. This competition could have a JV and Open divisions. I have not changed my mind on these issues now that my son is a 9th grader. These are just my thoughts and preferences. I know a lot of you do not agree but I think some do.

Jess Lemon will be wrestling in Kids state after his high school season finishes. He is wrestling varsity at Chapman and has done okay. He thinks of this as his year in Kids State. Last year, he was the only 8th grader in his bracket at kids state. He is a very young freshman (he won't turn 15 until late summer) and so feels that he is actually competing with kids his own age. Of course, he likes to wrestle with those Senior's too. His record right now at high school is 20-11. He may wrestle 140 or 145 in kids state although at high school, he is wrestling 135.
The toughest part for him will be with baseball practice starting the week after high school state. He is a little unsure how much practice he can do in kids federation with the amount of extra practice in baseball (baseball usually does 2 a day's for the first two weeks for a total of 4 hours a day). He also needs to okay it with the baseball coach but I am sure that he will get the approval.
One of Jess's close friends is Noel Richardson who took 4th at Kids State last year as an 8th grader. This year, Noel is also going to continue in Kids State after he finishes up his varsity high school year. He currently wrestles 160lbs and has 18 wins under his belt. Almost all of his matches this year have been against Senior's. He too is looking forward to wrestling kids his own age for a change.

Last year at kids state, I had the priveledge of watching one of Chapman's top wrestler's, Jon Arveson, wrestle against some of the best wrestlers in state. Jon is also very young for his class and could wrestle in kids state again this year in the 16U bracket even though he is a junior. I am unsure about whether he will or not at this time as he also competes in track AND golf in the springtime (Jon excells in every sport he participates in: football, wrestling, track, golf and even baseball in the summer).

Two more kids from Chapman that are going into the kids federation season: Freshman Michael Poland who is wrestling varsity at 103lbs and has 17 wins and freshman Andrew Todd who wrestles varsity at 112lbs. Michael Poland actually only weighs around 90lbs so it will be nice to see him with kids in his same weight class.

I just asked my 9th grade son if he would rather as a freshman be going against the best sophomores or best 8th graders in Kids this year. He said he would definitely rather be going against the best sophomores. He asked me why I was asking. I told him that the annual discussion about 8th graders going up against 9th graders was being discussed on the forum. He said that high schoolers should be wrestling high schoolers and grade schoolers should be wrestling other grade schoolers. It is not that he thinks he is going to roll over the 8th graders. He knows there are no doubt high quality 8th graders out there who can beat him that are like that crew of Furches, Detmer and Kolmer from a year ago. It is just more important for him now to push himself with better competition and he knows in general that would come from the sophomores instead of 8th graders. He knows for the most part he is more ready to go against the sophomores than the 8th graders are for the 9th graders.

With no disrepect to you Mr Nowak. It seems like every year you and Mr. Cokely are the only two people who seem to share this opinion. Im not saying thats a bad thing. My only point in this is that the majority of people in this state have spoken out in large numbers about how they would like to continue to trend that has forever been in place here in USAWKS.

I don't see the big problem with is, both as a former coach and now officiating. I think its great for wrestlers to get as much competition as possible all year long, and fed wrestling gives these kids 4 more weeks to get that much more competition.

Nigel, I know you are not showing me disrespect. I think you have respect for me and I have respect for you too. I admire you as a young man who gives so much of your time and energy for wrestling in Kansas. It is okay to disagree on subjects. We can do that and still like each other.

You are definitely wrong though if you think that Will Cokeley and myself are the only two to feel this way. I can site different topics on this very subject over the last several years that will prove that we are definitely not the only two to feel this way.

Also I am no longer advocating for the high schoolers not to be participating in Federation wrestling for four more weeks after their season is over. Even last year I was not saying that. Read what I said. I just want the high schoolers to have two separate high school divisions. A JV division and an Open Division (the open division would be open to all classes freshman thru seniors that wanted to partcipate in it). So a year ago a Romero Cotton, a Scott Elliot or a Marvio Tischhauser (if he had been healthy last year) could have been competing against the State's top freshman thru Seniors. You know as well as I do that those three would have been ready for that. My freshman son would not be ready for this Open Division this year but I believe he would be ready for the State best JV wrestlers at his weight group. I also believe that would be better for him competitively than wrestling 8th graders. I also think he is better prepared this year as a 9th grader to face the State's best 10th graders than he was last year as an 8th grader to face the State's best 9th graders in his weight group. The result might not end up any better than he did a year ago. He might even do worse. I just know that practicing all year in that Aquinas practice room has him better prepared for those sophomores this year.

I think due to the logistics that these separate high school divisions would have to be at another weekend than the grade school tournament. But some people suggested last year it could maybe happen on the same weekend if we made it a 3 day instead of 2 day State tournament.

Nigel,

Clearly, they are not the only two that have this opinion. As was quoted in a previous post, "everyone gets their advantage". We can all agree that it is an advantage wrestling all year with seniors and then wrestling 7th graders. Liberty Nationals has it right, "No freshmen in the 14U division". I also think that many high-schoolers feel the same way as Jacob Nowak. They would rather not wrestle 7th and 8th graders. Do you find it curious how Missouri as well as several top wrestling states disagree with 10th graders wrestling 7th graders for a state medal? Why does Kansas endorse it? Additionally, our High School kids miss an entire month of freestyle practice...We are discouraging a true "Grand State" possibility...We end up discouraging 8th graders from wrestling at Subs and subsequently in High School. If you have 16 7th and 8th graders at the State tournament instead of 3 wrestling against 13 High Schoolers, the excitement level for those kids will be high going into High School. I see SEVERAL 7th and 8th graders that don't even travel to Subs knowing that the brackets are full of Freshmen and Sophomores. This is a DIRECT result of Kids State in Kansas being High School State, Act II.

There are several other points that make this issue laughable when someone comments that nobody minds having two High School State tournaments.

Eric Johnson
Chief Renegade

i dont think the 8th grader wrestling the frshman discourages the kid from going out in HS. I think the thought of that same 8th grader when he gets to HS wrestling the SR is more discouraging. That and the fact that the yhave to give up so much of their sat. time is were the problem is, but thats another topic, I see no problem in the 9th grade kids wrestling the 8th graders, at some point every dog has his day. At the same time why are we worried about losing time on this and losing time on that lets be posittive and support whatever plateforum we have the kids see adults being negative they can be negative, negativity breeds negativity.. I jsut asked in the original post what Freshamn were going to wrestle through kids?????

Mr. Johnson,

I think you will find that a simple poll from the PEOPLE that matter the most, that being the WRESTLERS. You will find that many of them want to continue wrestling in kids as freshman and even some sophmores.

Moreover from that our state association REPEATDLY have voted down measures to exclude freshman and others from competining in these classes. I don't know what this says to you, but to me its says that the MAJORITY of people in this state feel that it is apropriate and would like to see it continue ( I raise my hand in support as well ).

As far as freestyle in concerned, perhaps Mr. Johnson you should consider that maybe some kids don't like freestyle wrestling and don't want to.

So I say this to you, what are you going to do about it? You aren't going to garner enough support to change what is already set, namely because you are in the minority. You aren't going to change anyone's opinion with simple arguements like "Well other states don't allow it"

In addition, if a kid is too scared, or not willing to go to a tournament simply because they have to wrestle someone who may be better than them, then perhaps they in the wrong sport. And if you are the type of coach who are providing scapegoats for your wrestlers, then shame on you.
I can tell you without question that I have NEVER dodged competition because I was worried I was going to lose, or that they might be better than me.

Honestly come up with some REAL reasons why freshman should not be allowed to wrestle in the 14 & U age group, when in fact they were 14 at the beginning on the season.

Nigel,

Dodging the real issues by defending your own bravado won't solve anything. It still happens and all of the REAL REASONS that I mentioned effect the PEOPLE that matter the most, the WRESTLERS. Freestyle and Greco performance suffering, lack of participation in High School, grand state possibilities, etc. One question to you that has never been answered... How can many strong wresting states vote wholeheartedly to keep Kids state from becoming High School State and Kansas be the polar opposite? It's at least interesting, agreed? I am all about promoting wrestling in Kansas and have never provided scapegoats for my wrestlers. I just wanted to be sure that your shoot-from-the-hip comments were not left unanswered.

Eric Johnson
Chief Renegade
913-484-3624

It's an age thing and not a class thing. What I like about kids federation is that kids are wrestling with other kids that are either their own age or a year older. There are several cases around the state of Kansas where 8th graders are 15 and compete against 7th and 8th graders during the junior high season. I know of at least one 15-year-old kid who went undefeated in junior high and is older than most freshman. Does he get to compete at kids state just because he is an 8th grader but my son, a freshman who will turn 14 in June, has to stay home? I could have done what some other parents do and held him back a year or two if that would make it better. Why is it so wrong for him to compete against 8th graders? This would not be a problem if he was a 7th grader who just finished his junior high season and was going to wrestle a 6th grader? (there are many schools with junior high season being run at the same time as high school).
With my son being a freshman, there still is no guarantee that he will beat all of the 8th graders. Last year, my son was an 8th grader and had to compete against the freshman. The first tournament with the freshmen, he was very surprised and suffered two hard losses. However, that just made him more determined to practice harder and to be better prepared. The next weekend, he defeated one of the kids and at districts, he defeated a varsity freshman from Clay Center. Let me tell you, that win was worth the whole season. After that, it gave him so much confidence and he knew that when he got to high school, he could compete with them.

It really isn't an age issue from my perspective. The issue is the preparation that I spoke of and many concurred. When you wrestle in high school the practices and the competition put you on a different playing field. There is nothing I can for my son to match what the high school kids have. As far as every dog having his day, my son is in 7th and will never wrestle 14&under while being a high school wrestler. I am looking at it from a fairness perspective not an age issue. I respect everyone's opinion but I am sure if I put a post that said the sky is usually blue Nigel would find a way to disagree with me