I think it is amazing that someone from Wabaunsee suggested Prarie View was over rated. I know a few people thought that with regard to Wabaunsees seeds at 215 and 275. I just wouldn't think any one from Wabaunsee would want to bring up such a thing.

Hey Fanatic, if Ben had the guts to write his name down with his opinions, why can't you? Who are you even?

To Praire View and the other doubters, I told you if Kimzey and Deltoro go 6 minutes Deltoro wins. Kimzey in the finals HA HA HA. And can anybody tell me what a Fire Ext?

To Praire View and the other doubters, I told you if Kimzey and Deltoro go 6 minutes Deltoro wins. Kimzey in the finals HA HA HA. And can anybody tell me what a Fire Ext door cost?

321A Wrestler,
You seem to have interest in knowing who hides behind their posting name as well!

I thought you were a CCC student from the NCKL so I found a name and went with it. That person would have been 14, approximately, in 2002 so I thought it was feasible. It really doesn't matter but if I knew what town you were from then I could give you some specific examples so I would be speaking directly from your perspective! It is not bullying, just curiosity.

A school cannot exist without funding. Funds have to come from jobs that are generating monies from outside of your town or community. Teaching jobs do not generate funds nor do administrators. Most western Kansas small, shrinking towns rely on agriculture as their primary resource for funds. A significant percentage of those monies are derived from government subsidies. A town cannot and should not exist just because their is a high school. 321A, let go, you are in denial! If you don't have an industry that generates jobs and a significant tax base then you should not have a shool. You are wasting your tax dollars and getting less for them and siphoning off some of mine too! I will pick on Rooks County again since I am quite sure, no matter who you are, that you are familiar with that area. They have three school districts which means they have three superintendants that drain your educational funds by $75.000 to $100,000 each. There are 235 high school kids in the top three grades of those three districts. Blue Valley has nearly 5,000 students and only one superintendant. Do we need to go on with the examples or is the picture getting clearer for you?

Why should schools with more students get more say...surely you are familiar with the electoral college and the house of representatives. They did teach you about those things in your dieing 321A high school didn't they?

Again, if you have an 8 man football team, look around, someone within 45 minutes of you has another one. Consolidate, put 11 guys on the field, put your tax dollars to better use, provide a better edcuational opportunity for your youths, and stop wasting my tax dollars.

Will,

As a Western Kansas guy, I'd like to respond. I do not disagree that we need to continue to pursue school consolidations, but you make it seem as if we have not been doing that. The Cheyenne Conference, which Palco is from, has lost Lenora, Morland, Eastern Heights and Kensington to closure or consolidation in the past few years. And while there are three schools in Rooks County, Palco, as I'm sure you are aware, also serves part of Graham County, in which there is only one. Same for Stockton. I can think of quite a few counties with only one or two districts. We have also utilized things like interactive television whereby a number of districts share teachers who teach multiple schools via interactive televisions. We must continue to explore and utilize advances in technology.

There are legal and practical limits as to how far kids should be bussed to school. Many farm kids are on a bus 30-45 minutes just to get to town. Add another 15-30 minute bus ride to another town and you have kids getting up before 6 am just to get to school. You also have a lot of high schoolers driving a lot of miles to and from school and extra curricular activities, obviously increasing the risk of traffic accidents.

While I do not fully understand the details of school finance, especially weighted enrollment, It is my understanding that the state pays X dollars for every non special education student in the state. Additional funds necessary to run each school are paid from local mill levies. That is to say, that my kids school does not cost you any more than your kid costs me. We keep our schools alive by increased local mill levies and as long as we can and decide to do so, it doesn't really hurt anyone else.

And, lastly, while Blue Valley only has one Superintendant, they have 80 administrators and almost a quarter of a billion in bond indebtedness. I don't mean that as a slam on the Blue Valley Schools. They are an excellent district. They do what they have to, as do we.

Respectfully Submitted,

Fletch F. Fletch

Cost Study Analysis - Estimating the Costs of K-12 Education

Fletch F. Fletch:

Perhaps the above link to a PDF document will answer your questions.

Thanks Richard. I did read the analysis, and frankly I'm not sure I'll ever understand. What I read has not changed my mind, but if you are suggesting I am wrong and can explain it, I'm glad to learn.

Once again thanks for the link.

Windy,

The cost per student for facilities and administrators should be and is a perfect example of how we should be leveraging our spend. It is an almost pure example of economies of scale at work. While there has been consolidation it has been far outpaced by the reduction in the number of students and since you brought up counties they too need to be consolidated. There has not been a county consolidation but there needs to be. There are 105 counties and 300 school districts in Kansas. Both of these figures could be trimmed significantly without impacting, materially, the general populace's level of service. My kids are on the bus for one hour and get up at 6am and their school is less than 10 miles away! The increase in traffic accident risk would still put that risk FAR below the risk kids in metro areas are exposed to. Eventually the inhabitants would move closer to the school if it became too much of a burden. I would advocate four day school weeks too. There are challenges but it is time we start working smart and figuring ways out to better utilize our dollars and not spend "just because we always have." Do you think there are no absentee land owners in western Kansas? There are probably as many or more than there are resident land owners! We, I am own, pay your property taxes and don't use any of the services but even worse we don't get to vote on how our tax dollars are spent!

In 2009 we will see some really tough economic conditions. Not unprecendented as it will not be as bad as "The Great Depression" but yet and still there will be many, many people without jobs and many, many government spending cuts. Why not be proactive and start figuring out how we can put our dollars to better use and spend less of them along the way.

Wow, a website where you can learn about wrestling and economics all at the same time, what a great concept! Thanks Will!LOL

Coakly.

"The cost per student for facilities and administrators should be and is a perfect example of how we should be leveraging our spend." I don't follow this statement.

As to the 105 Counties, I agree there is no reason for that many. Some county offices have already done some consolidation, but there is certainly waste in the system.

As far as the absentee land owners, we are very much aware that we have many. Way more than we would like frankly. They are a real problem for this part of the state. We are beholden to wealthy pheasant hunters and deer hunters who want to own our hunting ground, but not support anything else. They rent us back our own ground and take the money elsewhere. I'd charge them triple, but I don't have any say so in the matter.

I'm not sure why you care, or what you want us to do.

Windy,

How do you not understand that statement? The more kids per capital dollar and administrator dollar spent the more leveraged your spend is. In other words, if you only have 100 kids and your costs are $100,000 then your cost is $1,000 per kid. If you have 500 kids then your cost is only $200 per kid. If you don't have enough students to justify your costs then you either get more kids or move the kids to another under utilized situation.

I am appreciate your support for County Consolidation. Now lets figure out how we can make it happen!

You should be grateful for absentee land owners! Without them your land would be worth less. Without them buying food your land would be worth less. Without them renting the land back to your farmers then you would have less land in production thus generating less income in your community. Without hunters bringing dollars to your communities your community would be worth less. What else would you like them to support? Apparently they worked smart enough and hard enough elsewhere to buy the ground that locals could not. Capitalism! You probably hate that word too! In other words, if you try to keep everything in a closed loop community your community would be worthless!

Yes please stop buying food. That will teach us.

This is a VERY LONG POST; THOSE WITH SHORT ATTENTION SPANS OR WHO READ SLOWLY ARE ADVISED TO GO ON! ;-)

Earlier in this thread there was some discussion regarding school consolidations. A statement was made that larger districts would lead to more driving and therefore more fatalities. Will stated that kids in urban areas are at greater risk that those in rural areas. In that same response, Will suggested/asserted that going to a four day school week would save lots of money. He also made some statements about absentee ownership of property in rural areas.

In response to Will's statements, some research on teen driving and the four day school week is below, as well this poster's opinion on absentee ownership and some relevant mill levies.

It is safe to say that Will is wrong in regards to the driving issue; the four day school week has mixed reviews, both financially and academically

TEEN DRIVERS: URBAN OR RURAL AT RISK?

From: Attitudes Toward Seat Belt Use Among Urban & Rural Teens
Jeremy Diener & Lilliard E. Richardson
Institute of Public Policy Report 3 2007

". . .in general, teenage male drivers are at the highest risk with regard to seat belt non-use when involved in a crash, with RURAL MALES BEING THE WORST. . ."

* * * *

From: The Official Blog of the U.S. Secretary of Tranportation
http://fastlane.dot.gov/ 09.08.08

"Even though they drive less than other age groups, mile for mile, teenagers are involved in three times as many fatal crashes as all other drivers. TEENS DRIVING ON RURAL ROADS FACE A GREATER CHALLENGE. Even though rural roads carry less than half of America’s traffic, they are home to over half of the nation’s vehicular deaths. Worse, the FATALITY RATE FOR RURAL CRASHES IS MORE THAN TWICE THE FATALITY RATE IN URBAN CRASHES."

* * * *

From: Generational Perspectives on Teen and Older Drivers on Traffic Safety in Rural and Urban Communities
The University of Minnesota Center for Transportation Studies
Michael Manser,Director

"Traffic fatalities are a significant issue for society, ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE IN RURAL ENVIRONMENTS. . ."

(note: capitalization by this poster for emphasis)

* * * *

FOUR DAY SCHOOL WEEK?

TWO Excellent summaries of the pros AND cons of four day school weeks can be found at:
www.sreb.org/scripts/Focus/Repor/08S06_Focus_sch_calendar.pdf and
www.ceep.indiana.edu/projects/PDF/PB_V1N2_Four_Day_School_Week.pdf

In quick summary, the dollar savings are not as great as they would appear on the surface. Whether or not a four day week is good for student achievement has yet to be determined.

ABSENTEE OWNERSHIP OF LAND IN RURAL AREAS

There must be some financial incentive to own land on which taxes are levied "without representation;" otherwise it seems logical that even a marginally astute business person would divest themselves of the financial liability. Does it not follow, that just as one of the supposed results of school consolidations is people will move closer to the schools when driving becomes burdensome, wouldn't absentee landowners sell their property to those living close to the property when the burden/expense of absentee ownership became too great?

Below are the 2006-07 mill levies for all USDs in Johnson County and in Rooks County as this is where Will lives and is an absentee landlord, respectively. In the interest of fair play and full disclosure Norton USD 211 has also been included. 2006-07 rates are used as these was the most recent year for which complete information could be obtained from the KSDE website. Basically, more mills = higher personal property taxes.

Johnson County
USD 229 Blue Valley 60.650
USD 230 Spring Hill 67.9898
USD 231 Gardner-Edgerton 76.329
USD 232 De Soto 69.081
USD 233 Olathe 65.172
USD 512 Shawnee Mission 50.674

Rooks County
USD 269 Palco 36.045
USD 270 Plainville 45.427
USD 271 Stockton 44.837

USD 211 Norton 35.922


Greg Mann
Norton, KS

Greg,

You are the only one to bring traffic deaths into the arguement. All of the studies I read indicate a greater risk of accidents resulting in death in rural areas but not a greater risk of accidents in general. Most of the studies indicate that rural teens do not wear their seat belts as consistently as metro teens. It is not safe to say I was wrong as I stated there was a greater risk of accidents in metro areas not deaths. Just get an insurance quote for a rural zip versus a metro zip. The studies you cite do NOT indicate that these deaths occured when driving to and from school or to and from school activities. The studies I found indicate there is a MUCH higher rate of alcohol related accidents in rural areas. I am glad that you pointed me in this direction because much of the information I read about rural teen driving is scary. It sounds like driver's education in rural areas in sorely inadequate.


By citing mill levy rates how do you think that validates the existence of these school districts. I specifically cited the cost per student. Can you deliver to us those figures? Of course the rates are going to be higher where there are far more students, larger facilities, etc. You do not address the inefficiency of too many rural school districts, too many county governments, too many rural superintendents, etc. Show us the money!

The four day school week studies may or may not thoroughly cover the benefits and costs. In rural areas they may be more feasible where longer drive times are incurred and where child labor is readily used for agriculture activities. I don't think the studies seperated rural areas versus metro areas.

I am sure you agree that you and studies can spin anything to look however they want but the reality is that the changes in our systems have not kept pace with the changes in our demographics. I expected you to quickly jump to defend your position and your peers.

Instead of debating the need for your existence, please spend some time and energy discovering that the two pound allowance makes the most sense to be allowed immediately following Christmas break instead of three weeks later. 99.9% of the wrestlers would prefer this, as very few if any will certify after Christmas at a lower weight.

Happy New Year!

For the 2008-2009 school year the base state aid per pupil is $4,433.

Click on the link for the appropriate school district for more detailed information.
Kansas State Department of Education - Total Expenditures by District

I resemble that remark!
Mr. Mann:
Did you and I not have a very similar conversation on this talk forum five (5) or six (6) years ago. As I recall, during my research I went to the Norton High School website and posted a picture of a student sleeping in a vocational education class. Did anyone ever wake that student?

Mr. Mann:
Perhaps I am incorrect however it is my understanding Will lives in Douglas County, Kansas.

For those who are unaware, a mill is 1/10 of $.01 or $.001 (one thousandth). A mill levy is $1.00 a taxpayer must pay for every $1000 of assessed property value.

I have NO dog in this hunt and my conservative views regarding taxation are perverse at best.

I DO believe we must INVEST WISELY in the value of education for our youth and believe many educators are GROSSLY underpaid and many more who should have had their contract terminated prior to attaining TENURE (another subject which I hold a perverse opinion on).

Have a GREAT New Year and I hope to see you at Newton!

We home educated our five children for five years. We paid taxes but choose do to something else with our children. It was one of the best investments we could ever make in the lives of our kids.
They know how to learn, they know how to relate to multiple age groups and are not peer socialized, and they are a positive influence on their peers....most of the time.

It is not a choice for everyone - more of a calling- But more and more parents are making this choice-

School districts are seeing the trend and are starting to offer more "virtual" training.

Mark

Will,

It's all right. Nobody can be right all the time. Please remind the good citizens of Kansas City not to be emotional as we close their schools.

Seriously though, I do agree with you about the two pounds immediately following the holidays. There is no reason kids should be afraid of Christmas dinner.

Also seriously, I hope all of you have a happy new year.

Richard,

Happy New Year to you! I do have a unique living situation. My mailing address is Eudora which is a city in Douglas County but my house is in Johnson County. However, in 2008 I paid property taxes in: Jefferson, Douglas, Johnson, Seward, Rooks, and Graham Counties but I only got to vote NO on the bond issue to build more facilities in the Mill Valley school district in Johnson County.

Like you I hate tenure. I advocate the vouchering system or some sort of privatized education system where teachers and administrators are held to a fiscal responsibility beyond "spending within their budget."

I agree with you that the good educators are underpaid in our present system. The problem is they have little or no way to be performance based evaluated and rewarded. We should employ the GE method of cleansing the bottom 10% annually to bring in new teachers and administrators. This would bring greater focus on doing a good job and investing in our youth. (This is not to say that there are not some who don't already. We all know that there are some excellent coaches and teachers who pour their life into their work without being properly rewarded for it. The problem is that for every one of those there are a handful that just put in the time they have to and collect their pay.)

I have less of a problem paying property taxes as an absentee landowner than the locals have with those of us who own land and don't live there. That is an issue I don't understand. Why would they get upset that we buy land, employ locals to farm it, visit there and spend money while hunting it, pay our property taxes while we use little or none of the services the property taxes are paying for. That seems like a great deal to me!

The biggest problem I have with the whole education system, their little control mechanism called KSHSAA, is the inablity to keep pace with the changing times. It takes FOREVER to make a change. In the business world if you have a failing entity you figure out how to change it or close it as fast as possible but in the education world you keep throwing good money after bad with no accountability. You take advantage of the emotions and keep doors open that should have long ago been shuttered. Closing a factory is just as ugly as closing a school but it has to happen. We are all living in the real world but some just don't open their eyes to see it.