VS Vike Coach--your previous post was an excellent diversion to your signature. It looked as if it was done on purpose. Very clever!!

Umm... yes they do! You know how successful the OU football program is? Did you know that THEY charge out-of-state tuition for every kid on that roster not from the state of Oklahoma? What do you think that wrestling teams are an exception?

Yes, they do have 9.9 scholarships to give out, HOWEVER, they still have a budget. If they are filled with out-of-state kids, it drains their money from other areas (like transportation and entry fees).

One other thing to consider: Emporia State University is one of the greatest teaching schools in the country. Now, if you wanted to be a teacher (not an NFL player), and ESU offered you a full-ride scholarship to play football, and KSU (whose education program is lacking) offered you a partial, are you saying that it is stupid not to go to KSU?

I have one question:

Is it bad to know how to ride? Because I believe college does award riding time.

Riding is not bad, look at Iowa in the old days. Thye dominated on top. Top position is a plus, just not as important as being great on your feet and good at escaping.

I agree that most D1 wrestlers are better than wrestlers in lower levels, but not that much better. Keep in mind that there are only around 300 schools in all divisions that have wrestling programs. That's not very many teams for all the good wrestlers there are. So the level of skill isn't that much different between the divisions.

I don’t about other coaches, but I feel the original post made by gutwrench was an insult to coaches and referees in Kansas . Who is gutwrench, what are his credentials, and what qualifies him as an expert on areas of coaching and officiating in Kansas?

gutwrench1

This is one of the most ridiculous, and I might add, ignorant post I have seen on this forum. Have you done your homework on wrestling or are you just speaking off the cuff? Before you come on this forum and criticize coaches and referees with a blanket statement like that you might think about doing a little research to support your statement before you hit the post reply button.

Just what division one coaches you are so intimately connected with that gave you your information of their personal insight on Kansas Wrestling, and the incompetency of Kansas coaching? As for your comment on riding, I was still under the impression that riding time was still scored at the collegiate level, so why wouldn’t a coach teach riding skills to his wrestlers? Riding is still an essential part of folkstyle wrestling, so it would be asinine, actually, ignorant for coaches not to teach the skill. I might add that I don’t care for riding, but I teach the skill regardless. If you think Kansas is bad about riding, you might consider taking a trip to Oklahoma and view the mastery of riding. Oh, I might also mention OSU the defending NCAA champions are some the best at riding in the nation. True riding is not stalling! Riding is the ability to keep a person under control while you apply a pinning combination. But, there are those that just hang on, but that is called stalling, and not riding.

To address the whole Division I issue. Again, you haven’t done much thinking about this topic. Use some simple logic here. How many high schools are there in the state of Kansas? How many high school are there in the United States? Did you realize that less than one percent of high school athletes (nation wide) make it as Division I athletes? Do you also realize that Kansas athletes don’t even account for even one half percent of our nations athletes.

In Kansas we have 64-321A, 64-4A, 32-5A, 32-6A schools (not counting smaller schools) for a grand total of 192 high schools. In California alone there are over 3000 schools. (Approximate population of Cali. is 40 million). So, which state is more likely to produce Division I athletes?

Real simple just look at the population of Kansas as compared to the United States as a whole.

*Approximate population of the United States = 300,000,000 people
*Approximate population of Kansas = 3, 000, 000 people

I would say that there is a little competition out there wouldn’t you.

Plain and simple not many kids have Division I abilities.

Your original post somewhat implies that you are one of those whiners in the stands that think they know what the solution is to every sport, but very seldom do. As I call it a jack of all trades and a master of none. So, before you come on here and cast stones at the coaches and referees. Think about this. Do you really know what the HELL your talking about?

I'm not going to agree with everything Gutwrench said, but I think he makes a good point about KS kids needing to improve on their feet. I did OK in high school, but I'm embarassed to look back at tapes of high school matches. My stance was terrible, my shots were average at best, and I basically only had 1 set-up. But as ugly as it was, it worked for high school.

Then you get to college, and realize how hard it really is to take down a quality opponent. I guess that's where my earlier comment came from about the sportsmanship of the takedown & let him/her up mentality -- because I was on the wrong side of that a couple of times in college. My most humiliating loss ever was 21-7. If this guy could have just convinced himself that he could turn me, we could have had a respectable 4-2 match. But NO, he had to put on a takedown clinic. In hindsight, this was probably the best thing that ever happened to me in college.

I still don't like kids who take someone down and let them up if they are doing it to a clearly inferior opponent. But if you can do it to a good opponent, then more power to you. It is a lot more fun to watch 2 quality wrestlers on their feet than in any other position (in my opinion anyway).

my thoughts - not to offend or invoke displeasure, nor are they intended to impune the integrity of any specific individual(s) - just for discussion:

1) Kansas wrestling can/needs to be more aggressive, particularly on takedowns. Still far too many head ties and headlocks, particularly in the east. Solution: start at kids level and, as difficult as it may seem, don't teach a headlock until age 13. :-)

2) Kansas wrestling can /needs to be more aggressive from the top. Far too many hip huggers and spiral riders. Yes, I appreciate one who can ride and float, but, as the high school rules indicate, the top wrestler needs to aggressively pursue scoring opportunities by moving off the hips,etc, etc. There was a reason the national federation high schools moved away from riding time.

3) Coaches teach their wrestlers how to wrestle. Far too many wrestlers, even at State level, are passive on their feet. That's fine and great if that's the way one wants to win.

4) Far too many referees in this state (and yes, I have refereed) do not call stalling aggressively or consistently. Far too many coaches continue to select referees to officiate who do so. This may sound harsh on referees, but if I've done my job as a coach and my wrestler is busting his/her tail to score but is consistently 'stalled' out, then why can't I demand that same level of professionalism from my referee? Ever notice the difference between a college official and a state one? Calling the takedown, near fall, etc is the easy part.

5) D1 wrestlers, for the most part, are better atheletes and wrestlers. That's why they're D1. That does NOT impune the ability of any DII etc, as pointed out in earlier posts, many quality wrestlers CHOSE to go to lower level, not necessarily lower competition, schools. This argument is more like ice cream flavors...which is better vanilla or choclate.

6) I would like to see an ALL Class competition. No, I don't want to walk down the prim rose path of Grand State or Team Duals. But if larger states can do it, why can't we? Yes, some kids may not get the chance to compete at a state level, but is that necessarily bad? Make it a 64 man bracket based on an All regional selection process and wrestle for 4 days...now THAT's wrestling.

7) Final thought: Kansas wrestling is just as good as any other state, if not better than many. There are particular regional styles, east, west, north, south that ARE obvious. Whether or not these styles translate into collegiate level ability is purely conjuncture...reference the ice cream argument earlier.

Tim Shea

I think gutwrench misread what I said, so I will cover it again.

1. On the whole DI athletes tend to be better than those divisions below them, however as I pointed out there are numorous examples of kids wrestling right now in lower divisions that can and do beat their DI counterparts.

2. I never said DI wrestling was over rated, not sure where you got that.

3. That is exactly what I said on there, some Kansas kids don't want to wrestle at DI schools because maybe they don't like what these school have to offer them in terms of academics, programs, etc. Look at Ross Taplin, he could go DI but hes going to UNO because he likes the program they have up there and Abilene already has two graudates up there. My point in this whole thing is.. Gutwrentch maybe you should consider that some kids have more important things on their mind than wrestling at a DI school that they don't like. As i've said already there really isn't a compeling reason to wrestle in DI in the sport of wrestling, unless you just like the compeition. Being an All-American in College wrestling, at best might land you a few endorsement deals, but there really isn't a professional career after college wrestling, therefore our kids choose schools that they want to go to for school.

As an official I get to see everything that happens in our sport week after week, and I agree that we as a community really should cut down even more on top riding, I myself call stalling very aggressively, but I cannot control what other officials do, its their opinion when they are on the mat that matters, its within the rules and they are justified to call whatever they see fit. Personally I would love to see USAWKS and NFHS make the standing headlock illegal, i've been for this for many years now, it is a pathetic move usually only used in two situations. 1. The guy is desperate, 2. Its the ONLY move he will use. Its sad when i'm on the mat and the coach from the opponent is telling his wrestler to watch out for the headlock before we even start the match.

The headlock thing cracks me up because there were about 3 or 4 state championship matches won on a headlock!

Well said Tim Shea --- and hearty congrats on first season at the Creek!!!!

JLH

Just to point out 1 thing.

THERE WILL NEVER BE AN ALL STATE/GRAND STATE EVENT IN KANSAS AGAIN.

We've been over this issue at least twice every year for the last 9 years and not one bit of difference has been made. Isn't it about time we stop wishing for this event to happen , when we all know very well that KSHSAA would never approve it? Rick Bowden has made it VERY clear that these types of events are not going to happen because of the time and money involved as such. If one sport has it then every other sport will have it and thats just not feasible. So please people can we just drop the whole 1 class arguement.

The big picture is that the lack of a D1 program kills the number of kids who wrestle D1. I wrestled D2 at a school in nebraska and probably 3/4 of the team were from Kansas. I have seen some of the wrestlers that are on some of these D1 programs and they are very average at best. In open tournaments we beat D1 kids all the time. If Kansas were to get a D1 program the shear numbers of Kansas kids wrestling D1 would increase. I don't think style is an issue. Defense and riding are key components to college wrestling. A college match between two good D1 wrestlers usually comes down to defense on your feet and if they can secure riding time. The complaint about out of state tuition is alos weak. Most schools give in state tuition to those athlets who have above average gpa's and act scores. the bottom line is that the lack of D1 wrestlers from Kansas is due to the fact of a lack of D1 programs.

Eagle1,
Will you give us some examples of D2 beating D1 all of the time. During the 2003-2004 year, Nebraska beat Kearney 46-0 in a dual. We know Kearney is always a very good D2 team, but there was a big difference between D1 Nebraska and D2 Kearney. I'm not saying a D2 wrestler doesn't or can't beat a D1 wrestler, but I can't buy the all the time statement.
Kansas has many kids in D1 programs, we do fine for our population. Is there room for improvement?Of course!!

First of all, I'm not talking about duals. The very best D1 wrestlers will kill DII wrestlers, I said nothing to that effect. What I was talking about was in open tournaments. DII wrestlers beat D1 wrestlers all the time in open tournaments. The D1 wrestlers that get beat are the reshits, freshman, and average D1 wrestlers. These are the kind of wrestlers that a D1 program in Kansas would allow for more D1 wrestlers.

Some really great posts on this subject. Coach Neil, your comments are so appreciated.

I coached for two seasons in Southern California, the wrestling was not that much better than here, but the overall number of good kids were, just by sheer population

Gutwrench-just who are ya?

A couple years back, i sat with Chad Flores of Kearney and Silver Lake 2xchamp at the UNO open and we discussed the difference between the D1 and D2 guys. Mostly he felt was the overall competition in the room that they faced daily.

the biggest obvious difference was in the heavies, the D1 guys definitely were more athletic, looking like NFL linebackers and d-end types, and the D2 guys were more doughboy build.

Coach Shea, some good points. I believe in Huskerland wrestling in nebraska headlocks are illegal in their divisions lower than 12 yrs of age and they start all periods on their feet. It does help in the long run.

I wouldn't call open tournaments a good measure of D1 vs D2. Opens contain redshirts, walk-ons or the second and third string guys. You take the Top D-1 guys vs D-2. D-1 would win well over 90% of time.

Kansas does ok for its population in sending kids to D-1. But look at your top three wrestling states in my opinion Pennsylvania, Ohio and New Jersey. These states have populations 3-4 times the size of Kansas, but probably produce 20 times the amount of college wrestlers.

A few reasons why Kansas wrestlers don't get recruited as highly.

1. Tough to measure quality of state champions, due to 4 classes in a small population state. Some state champions are relatively weak in KS.
College coaches are only going to give scholarships to the real deal. Why spend time to travel and recruit in Kansas when your not sure of the product.

2. Lack of D1 exposure in Kansas. Kansas kids do not see college wrestling nor read about it.
Seeing high level of wrestling can be great teaching and motivating tips. Kansas kids do not get it. If K-state had a team, interest in college wrestlign would spike. At the college level, Kansas is a big basketball state.

3. Style has little to do with it. I agree with some of other posts that Kansas is a riding state but sometimes the kids lack the neutral takedown skills.
The college wrestling game emphasizes much more riding. More time is spent on the mat and you're rewarded for it. Most college coaches would say they have to teach new recruits how to ride due to lack of skills coming in. I've seen posts on Missouri website asking the same question. There response was MO kids weren't recruited due to the lack of riding skills.

"I've seen posts on Missouri website asking the same question. There response was MO kids weren't recruited due to the lack of riding skills."

LMAO!!!!! Great example!

Comparatively speaking, Kansas does well nationally. Particularly when you consider the state population. We always do well as a team at the Senior Nationals and at Fargo, usually finishing in the top ten. We also do well in the National Duals, we even beat California for third in 2001 placing behind Oklahoma and Ohio. We usually finish in the top ten there as well. When you look at a comparable state, population-wise like Oklahoma, you see the difference. Oklahoma has won like 8 of the last 10 National Duals Championships and almost always places in the top five at Nationals with even better success at Fargo. Kansas has great wrestlers but for every one of them, Oklahoma has 5-10. For
every Zach Roberson or Eric Akin that Kansas produces, Oklahoma produces 5-10. The question is why? More appropriately, to answer the question of the initial post, is why does Kansas not produce as many Robersons, kids that can win a DI title or All-American honor? The answer definately does not, in my opinion, have anything to do with high school coaches or officials. I have HEARD that they emphasize more riding and pinning out in Western Kansas which would compromise the developement of "feet" wrestling, but that is definately not the case in most places. As someone who has coached high school wrestling in Oklahoma and Kansas, I believe the difference to be in Junior High. Oklahoma schools run their Junior High programs like we run our High School programs so our kids are already behind Oklahoma when they get into high school. Junior High wrestling in Oklahoma is serious business. Junior High wrestling in Kansas is a joke, Wichita does not even have junior high wrestling. We run our junior high programs worse than some kids programs and that is why some kids do not even wrestle for their junior highs and instead stay on the kid's circuit. Just a thought. What do you think?

In speaking with Coach Smith from MU at camps, he has said almost the exact same thing, and is one reason he has been recruiting in Kansas.