i saw the official notice being passed arround by Norton administration Thursday, Oakley WILL be at norton

Deerfield to Norton approximately 180 miles!
Oakley to Norton approximately 85 miles!
Deerfield to Hoisington approximately 170 miles!
Oakley to Hoisington approximately 140 miles!

In terms of travel distance, the KSHSAA decision of where to place Deerfield was a wash, however Oakley is considerably closer to Norton.

In my experience, KSHSAA rarely considers strength of regional over logistics in placing regional assignments.

Also, Deerfield has to follow Lakin wherever they go. They're consolidated on the sport.

Some excellent points made on this topic. I agree with Bigknee that the other 321A regionals (besides Norton) are basically a joke. However if you were to have the schools vote and see if they want to mix the regionals up 3 of 4 would vote to keep it the way it is (all schools not in the NW regional voting to keep it). These schools don't want Hoxie, Norton, St. Francis, Oberlin, Oakley etc. coming to their regional because they know it would cost them wrestlers at state. Also as was pointed out Nigels reasoning is flawed. Every coach would like to get as many wrestlers to state as possible and going to a weak regional certainly increases the odds. To win you need quality but also quantity.

KSHSAA did the correct thing...........after they screwed up. They should have had it right in the first place.

Big Daddy
I don't know how you define joke, but if you care to wage a war of insults, you better strap it up because you are minor league compared to what I deal with every day. I won't deny the Norton regional is considerably tougher than the others. I will also not let you be condescending.

Its really too bad that the strong heritage in that nw ks. area causes them to basically have to beat each other to a pulp for the honor of having a comparatively easy go at state. Last years Kshaa regionals that split the teams there up and had a northwest and southwest site did a better job of giving everyone a chance. Hoxie and Norton were split apart, with oakly going with Hoxie and (I think) sainty , atwood, and oberlin going with Norton. I hesitate to say that the other regions are a joke this year but if there arent 75% of the placers (at state)coming out of the Norton region (one tournament) compared to the other three tournaments, I will be surprised. there are some quality guys in the rest of the state, but the teams up north, especially this year, seem to be a little better. That being said, it is really early in the season and a lot can happen between now and then. 4a is somewhat the same with the strength of the Abeline region, but there are some other teams (SFT, Columbus, Scott City, Ulysses, plus
many premium individuals outside of the Abeline regional, That will even out the numbers somewhat as far as state placers from each region. The 5a and 6a teams will be stacked to the east as there are so few schools that size in the west. AS nigel stated, Abeline was able to beat the odds last year, but if memory serves me correctly, they were not able to win the Goodland regional. In that case (state),a few quality wrestlers were able to do well. This year may not be so clear cut.

Sir, I would dispute your claim that most of the quality 5a and 6a teams will come from the East. Manhattan considers themselves on the Western half of the state (because population-wise, they are). I think Topeka is the cut-off, and I would argue that wrestling west of T-Town is tougher all around.

And you mentioned quality 5a teams. Ha. You're a kidder.

My bad, Mr. Garker, as a geographic westerner I didn't take that into consideration. I speak of the desolate, parched, windblown area that 'ol Zebulon Pike (Read your History) referred to as the Great American Desert. Zeb obviously was not a wrestling fan, as that western 200 miles of this state is the Garden of Eden of wrestling.
The secret of the strength of the Far Western Territories is that they don't cut their hair (old testament Bible secret) and they carefully monitor their school attendance so that very few of their schools become 5a. (just Kidding. Really.)

Prant says:

"Manhattan considers themselves on the Western half of the state (because population-wise, they are)."

Let us deal in facts! It matters not where Manhattan considers themselves, what matters is geographic location. There are certain fundamentals of land measurement, Meridians (Longitude) and Base lines (Latitude) which run parallel to Meridians. Simply, fold a State of Kansas map in half, or into thirds, and Manhattan always is located North and East of these boundaries. According to any geographic study, the ONLY Western location of Manhattan, when the State is divided into thirds, is their location in the Northeastern quadrant of Kansas.

Lastly, Mr. Garker states "And you mentioned quality 5a teams. Ha."

In rebuttal, I mention Arkansas City (which MAY be down this year) Kansas City Turner, Salina South, Wichita Bishop Carroll, and Wichita Haysville Campus.

No question Manhattan is a HIGH quality program located in NE Kansas.

Fanatic Slow down! Obviously you must think of yourself as some kind of tough guy or champion insult slinger and my intention was not to offend anyone. However if the truth hurts I can not help it. The majority of ppl. on this topic agree that the Nt. regional is the toughest. You must be from the east and can't stand the fact that the great teams are from out there. I stand by all my earlier statements.

I'm with you Big Daddy, well said.

Just a question! How much of KSHSAA regional site determination is based off of members school applications to host? Do you have to apply to host?

I can easily solve the problem. Since 6 medals are awarded at state lets take 6 out of each regional and see what happens. Let 5 from one regional wrestle 6 from another in a bunny bracket and then put the winner in a bunny against the number 4 from the odd regional. The winner there would fill in the 16 man bracket. I know it would add 6 more matches per bracket but the real 5th&6th state placers would at least get to wrestle.

Mr. Salyer,

In no way do I dispute your claim that Manhattan is not geographically in the northeastern part of the state. NE Kansas 4 life, baby.

However, in regards to wrestling regionals and population distribution, I was simply pointing out that Manhattan can possibly be considered a "Western" team. The majority of 5a and 6a schools are either in Topeka or to the East, which is why more often than not Hat Town wrestlers are on the West team in the East/West classic (though I believe they don't do East/West anymore), and are always on the West team in the Shrine Bowl.

You, however, completely disregarded my statement and decided to get all crazy and technical about meridians. (By the way, that didn't make your point any more valid because you used the technical terms for longitude and latitude that we all learned in 7th grade.) The only reason I can see why you would take my post literally and disregard my statement about population is because you're a curmudgeoney old man who has nothing better to do than argue with teenagers.

Either that, or you're jealous that Hat Town is just so danged witty.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!

And to Mr. Fairleigh-

Of COURSE I know Zebulon Pike. One can't struggle through Kansas history in 6th and 9th grade without learning that he passed through our great state once upon a time.

Dear Prant:

What I am jealous of is the quality of Manhattan's wrestling program, from Kids to the High School. Many wonderful people have tutored many outstanding athletes, Ned Price, Mr. Miller, Mr. Bradshaw, etc.!

There was no need for me to be argumentative, as I was pointing out the obvious.

Last I knew, Dodge City, Garden City, Hutchinson, and all Wichita High Schools are West of Manhattan.

We do agree that wrestling in the West is tougher.

I too wish you a wonderful and joyous Holiday, and safe travel!

To Big Daddy:

I do not personally know fanatic, and fanatic certainly does not need me to come to his defense, however I believe fanatic is a minimum 2X State Champion from a 3-2-1A school located in NW Kansas.

Perhaps just a misunderstanding!

But seriously, come on. How hard is it to be a 2x champ in 321a?

Oh wait- real hard.

To Fanatic:

Three issues that you have stated or implied bother me:
1) Norton is not a tough Regional

Norton Regional – 8 of 10 last years top ten teams – Hoxie, Norton, Oakley, (wait they are going to Hoisington, you told me), Beloit, Oberlin, Atwood, Minneapolis, Saint Francis

Easton Regional – 1. ACC Atchison

Hesston – None

Hoisington – 1, (or two) Ellis and Oakley??

2) And I quote from one of you other posts on the forum “ Oakley is NOT going to the Norton Regional” - say what??

3) Another of your posts asked for Motel Information in Hays – I recommend you go to Norton the week before (drive back and forth, it’s not far from Manhattan – Garker would know) – and take a pup tent to Hays

One good thing though for you, Mr. Fanatic, you have Salyer for your defense attorney.

To Coachtwink:

I am not God, Salyer or Fanatic, (and certainly with no disrespect for you), but if the Forum is correct in the results from last year, the 10th place team was Ellis with 52 points – Ellsworth and TMP had 40 and 45, respectively (not in the top ten) – I do, however like your avatar

Dear Dalefish1:

As I understand the scenario: KSHSAA issued Regional site locations and assignments on or about December 10, 2003 and, initially Oakley was assigned to the Hoisington Regional. After an error regarding the non-placement of Deerfield was discovered, KSHSAA issued an assignment for Deerfield to Hoisington, to follow Lakin, as they have a consolidation agreement, and at that time, placed Oakley in the Norton Regional.

The discussion on this talk forum regarding Regional re-assignment of Oakley began (Sunday) December 14, 2003; after completion of the Norton Tournament. At the onset of the discussion, the KSHSAA web site had not been updated indicating a Regional re-assignment for Oakley, or any regional designation for Deerfield.

The following statement by fanatic "I am confident you will find Oakley did not switch regionals." posted on this thread December 14, 2003; is absolutely correct. Oakley did not switch Regionals! KSHSAA, after discovering their error, made the switch to Oakley's (in my humble opinion) disadvantage. Am I being technical, YES!

Nowhere on this thread, or any other thread, do I recall a statement from fanatic denigrating the Norton Regional. On December 15, 2003; fanatic stated “I won't deny the Norton regional is considerably tougher than the others.” Kindly support your statement “Three issues that you have stated or implied bother me:
1) Norton is not a tough Regional” with fact(s)?

You were also highly critical of me on another thread regarding high school rankings for my position criticizing those involved. My criticism stemmed from the following: a Winfield High School senior, a three time KSHSAA medalist and former State Champion, was deliberately not ranked due to the fact the Winfield coach failed to return requested information from those compiling the rankings. The failure to include this wrestler, and several other returning medalists rendered the rankings inaccurate. The primary element in the Preseason ranking is based on last year(s) performance at the KSHSAA State Championships.

Do I make mistakes, YES! Do I consider myself a GOD, EMPHATICALLY NO! When in error, will I admit to a mistake, YES!

Do I attempt to ascertain all facts before engaging my big mouth on this forum (keyboard in this instance), YES.

In closing, will I apologize for my fact based opinion, NO!

Will I apologize if I offended you, YES!

I apologize for offending you!

I also apologize to all of you who had the patience to read this lengthy statement!

Mr. Lane, if you read this post, I am not attempting to reopen old battles. Peace!

Have a safe and joyous Holiday!