There is a topic in the Kids Forum on who will be the next high school 4 time State Champion. I have mentioned a number of 8th graders who are at average to above average weight classes and have had very successful youth wrestling careers. I have pointed out that I think it is going to very difficult for them since they will be facing more juniors and seniors in their freshman year than the lighter weight freshmen.

So this brought up a question to me: What is more impressive or difficult to accomplish a very light weight 4 time State Champ or a heavier weight 3 time State Champ. For instance is Zach Roberson's 4 time feat more impressive than Justin Dyer's 3 time feat? I am interested in what the high school forum people think of this comparison. If you have an opinion on who the next 4 timer will be you might want to add to the topic on the Kids forum.

Roy osier from Kapaun was a 4 timer, I think the second one ever behind Doug Duel, at heavier weight, maybe 180 or so, I think there are two schools of thought here, especially in the last couple of divisions or so, about the difficulty factor-- granted there is a higher percentage of older competitors but there are also a lower degree of physical development. Most of the Tourneys I have attended have primarily 4a and below class schools, and when you look at the heavyweight division, and see what a tremendous physical advantage a Jordan Bedore or Tony Lewis have over most of the other guys, you can see where a young man who may be at that weight as a freshman with that kind of a build, could definitely be in the top 10% of the group just from the strength and cardiovascular advantantage
that he would have. Gerold Speer from Scott City, and Rick and Lance Lewis from the same town (Rick Played football at K-state and Lance played at Nebraska) were three such folks that I can think of. It seems to me that usually 145 to 160 is the Killer weight in most classes simply because that is the natural weight of the most competitors. also If you happen to land in a class with a Taplin, or Kreigbaum, Grater, et al, your chances of winning as a freshman are about nill. so I reckon you'd have to look and see who each of the 4 timers actually had to beat, to determine the value of their accomplishment, regardless of weight.

Mike, you might be correct in your physical development point in the heaviest division 275 but I think that would be the only division it would be valid. At the high school meets I have attended, I would have to say that I thought the 215 class looked to be a very high level of physical development. I have seen very few freshmen competing successfully at 189 or 215, but I have seen a lot of successful freshmen at 103 and 112. At the same time many of the 103 class although looking great as far as quickness and cardio capability, I would not place very high on the physical or strength side of the equation. Some 103 kids are well developed strengthwise, just as some 275 kids are in pretty decent shape.

I was looking at the numbers last year though and it was overwhelming the amount of underclassmen in the lower weights vs. the upperclassmen in the heavier weight classes in the State tournaments. I just think it is pretty much a given that it is more difficult for a heavier freshman or sophomore to achieve success than a lighter weight one. Just compare an in shape 189 freshman vs. an in shape 189 pound senior. I will put my money on the senior. I know you could say the same thing about a 103 pound in shape freshman and senior. You are not going to find that many 103 pound freshmen, but you will find a lot of 189-215 pound seniors.

Scott Coleman was a 3 timer and a national champ. Bo Maynes, a lighter 4 timer, never won a national title. Does that mean that Scott is a better wrestler? Perhaps.
You have to look at the competition that each wrestler faces. Some years there is better competition at the lighter weights, and some years the fatties are better. Well, I'm going to stop typing now because I'm bored. And I'm super-hungover, so I ain't proofreadin'.

Dingbat - are you sure Bo never won a national title? I know he took 2nd the year I went to watch him, but it seems like he had won it the year before.

I see it as the same you win it 4 times or you can win it 3 times it doesnt really matter you will be known for a while and have done something most people have not

Wrestling at a heavier weight as a frosh is very difficult. Justin was a freak so it was a little different for him. But for Zach he was at a lighter weight but he never lost, that is amazing.

Id say in some tourney's it may be harder for a frosh lightweight to win a tournament because usually the lightweight brackets are all full and stacked. Ive noticed in a lot of tournaments before state, the heavier weights have more byes or opens. Thus it would be easier for a heavier frosh to win or place higher in a pre-state tourney. But when a heavier weight frosh wrestles at state, he will have a full and stacked bracket waiting for him. This is when the heavier weight frosh will have serious trouble. So i guess its fair to say that by state time its harder to place at state than a lighter weight in most cases.

Dingbat - are you sure Bo never won a national title? I know he took 2nd the year I went to watch him, but it seems like he had won it the year before.

--Mikey--The two times I went to freestyle/nationals with Bo, he never placed higher than 3rd. I know he did not go to high school nationals as he was at the Dapper Dan Classic. I'm not sure what his highest place was. I guess I could look it up...wait...no, I forgot--I'm fat and lazy.

either way, 1st or 3rd, Bo & Scott were both great wrestlers. I thought you meant junior nationals in Fargo. I guess you were talking about high school nationals. I watched them both at the NCAA's last year. I think Bo went 2-2, and Scott was doing pretty good until Mocco tried to rip his shoulder out of the socket. I was about 8 rows from the top of Kemper, and it even hurt watching it from up there!!

Bo was injured his senior year and couldn't compete at the national tournament in Pittsburg. If my memory serves me correct it was his knee that he hurt at the Dapper Dan tournament.

I was Bo's teammate on several USAW KS national teams. He never won it while I was there, and he was at the dapper dan instead of HS nationals.

The difference in strength and speed between a freshman and senior is enormous. Freshmen in the upper weights that survive and compete some have had a great year. Freshmen in the middle weights who compete and are above average have had a great year. Freshmen in the lower weights who finish at the top of the pile have had a great year.

Of course "great" is in the eye of the beholder. But there is a reason you do not see 4x state champs in the upper weights. Also, there are a lot of freshmen who do well who are really disguised sophomores. They are older, and by virtue of age could be starting their sophomore year when they start their freshman year of high school.
Winning a state championship, ever, is difficult. But, winning it 3x in the upper weights is perhaps the bigger accomplishment.

Bo won Junior Nationals his sophomore summer at 105.5 lbs. He beat Leroy Vega of Indiana in the semi's and Nathan Navarro of Orgeon in the finals. I think he took 3rd the next summer at 114.5 lbs and 2nd the next summer at 123 lbs. So Dingbat you stand corrected, Maynes does have a national title under his belt.

Gran5:

I would have sent this message to you in an e-mail since I have already stated my position on the topic but you are not set up for that. I just wanted to tell you that I think you stated it very well in your statement about the strength and speed difference gulf between a freshman and a senior. I agree with that. I would bet that Strengthman with his high school weightlifting coaching experience could probably add to that thought. I think I read somewhere that an athlete does not hit his strength peak until he hits about thirty years old. That is why I think it is so difficult for freshman to successfully compete against juniors and seniors. Since the heavier weight kids will encounter more juniors and seniors, this strength difference makes it more difficult for them to succeed.

i think its the same. winning 4 titles at lighter weight is the same as winning 3 as a big guy. as far as i konw there has never been a 4 time champ as a heavy or 215 in kansas. but there have been numerous 4 timers at the small weights. i dont belive a freshman has ever won a state title at 215 or heavy either.