Does anybody know who won the team championship at state or where I would be able to find that?

Team Of Hard Knox with 178, followed by the Brawlers with 176. I think these are the right scores, but who really cares about the team scores becuase they are biased based on how big the city is.

Richard,

Your numbers are pretty close. I won't post the final team numbers for about a week, since there are always a few corrections that have to be made after the individual results are posted.

While I agree with Nigel that the numbers overlook the accomplishments of smaller clubs, it's still fun to see how your club stacks up against the competition.

The district totals are always good for a few debates, as well. They're the Kids' version of the high school's 3-2-1A vs 4A vs 5A vs 6A annual argument. Of course, everyone knows that 5A is really the toughest!

How are the team scores biased based on the size of the city? I can understand that you may argue it is biased based on the size of the club but I don't understand why the city size has anything to do with it. Manhattan, Clay Center and Salina have very big clubs -- larger than most in Wichita. Remember that Wichita has a lot of clubs whereas the smaller towns usually only have one. I don't think we ought to put any emphasis on "team points" and agree it is a fun thing. I just didn't understand your thinking on this one.

The Capitol Journal is reporting TOHK 178, Brawlers 176, Turner 112. You can find it at cjonline.com.

12U 92# and 12U 150# were missing from the early morning list of the state champions. Now they are both on the list and if you add the points you will have the Brawlers in 1st place with a total of 184 points and TOHK with a total of 182 points. The Brawlers should be in 1st place providing the rest of the list is correct.

By city size I meant on the average bigger cities have bigger clubs. Manhattan is indeed a big city with 45,000 but counting the surrounding "suburbs" its more like 139,000 becuase many kids come from Junction, Ogden and other palaces to wrestle for Manhattan. It is therefore a big club and the same goes for Salina with 50,000 people. Clay Center is the only exception that comes to mind as a team with many members in a smaller town. In any case with the bigger availibility of kids that can wrestle a club will have more wrestlers and more chances to qualify kids for state and therefore win it. So there you have it, the team scores are biased based on a citys population .... Generally.

Are you kidding me??? Who the heck really cares about teams scores, especially at the kids level!!! Give me a break...You parents really need to get on with your life...Wrestling is a one-on-one sport and the only time a "team" concept comes into play is at the high school/college level...

Go back into the hole you all crawled out from and get a life!!!

The size of the city and club do not necessarily mean anything. The Brawlers sent 26 kids to subs and district and 24 to State. They practice in two garages. It's a small club that did a great job.

First I would have to agree with GorillaHawk about team scores at this level, they are pointless. Second the brawlers are a collection of wrestlers from several of the wichita are teams. Most of them are A level wrestlers anyway, so you can expect them as a whole to do well at state, but why are we even talking about this cause as I said earlier team scores mean squat at kids state.

All though I understand Mr. Isom's post I have to agree with Mr. Disney's thought process. We here in Lawrence have four clubs in a small town. We the Jayhawks only have 11 kids in our club but we took 4 kids to state and coached 2 more from the Lawrence Coyotes. With the four that we took we had 2 first and 1 fifth. If you include one of the two that we coached from the Coyotes we would have an additional third place. The Sunflower Kids Club also from Lawrence had 2 first a third and a fifth as far as I can remember. In our 14& Under 75 pd. he only gave up 1 point the whole tournament and that was for locked hands. I guess what I am trying to say is that even though we are a small club and probably won't get noticed on the team score page, we feel like we made a difference. We can only imagine if we had all the Lawrence Clubs on the same page. Hats off to the Brawlers and the TOHK. WOW!!! To turn them out year after year they must be doing something right!!!!

About four years ago I used the team scores to help us make a decision on choosing a new club for my son. His first club was excellent for him his first two years, but we did not have enough open wrestlers in his third year for him to improve. We were not wrestling a full open schedule that third year, so we decided it was time for a change. Our school had a family with an older boy on the STA club. They recommended the club. I talked to another STA parent about it at a meet.

What I still did not know was how good of a club it was. After the State results were posted that year I found out that STA did have some State placers and had finished in the top half of teams that scored points at State. I went further into looking into the results at Subs and District and found that there were at least a half a dozen wrestlers that were my son's approximate weight and were one to two years older than him. I called the club president Joe Cisper learned about his and Sean McCarthy's coaching philosophy and decided this would be a great fit for my son.

He has been taken quite a few beatings from those older boys the last three years in practice but it has really paid off for him. He has improved as a wrestler every year. So the team results and the results from Subs and District did help me find a club that had enough quality wrestlers in my son's approximate size and age group to practice with. It was a big part of why we picked the STA club.

I don't see how you can say the Brawlers are an "all-star" team. Most of the boys wrestled together during the summer. Then when folkstyle started they practiced together all season. I could see someone complaining if a group of wrestlers got together just to enter as a team like some of the teams who go to Tulsa do. That would truly be an "all-star" team. But if a group of wrestlers want to form a team and work out together all year then they are a team and should be recgonized as one. You also wondered why a parent would allow his child to wrestle with TOHK. One, the child will be a better wrestler. Two, he will learn about being part of a team. Three, he will have supporters even if he loses. People talk alot about the behavior of some of the TOHK coaches. Some of it is deserved and some is not. However, I can tell you that a TOHK coach will work just as hard and argue just as long for a first year wrestler that is new to the club as he will for his own son. To the TOHK coaches every kid is just like their son. You couldn't ask for more from a coach.

Nigel... I beg to differ with you about Manhattan having kids from outside of the community. We have had a standing rule within the club, for as long as I can remember that limited kids from USD 383 school district. There are only two kids that go to Rock Creek. But these young men lived in Manhattan prior to moving east of town. Both of them have been wrestling for us since they were 6 years old! Now they are respectively 13 and 16. I sure that Abilene has not had people come to them and request participation with their club from outside of the community. If we opened our doors to everyone in the surrounding area there would not be a place big enough to practice, We currently worked four nights a week as it is. One must remember that the clubs that recruit kids to have nothing but the elite are maybe passing on a young man or women that could possibly be the next all American. Or worst, somebody that needs this activity to build the self esteem to become a better person!

it seems strange to me that some people look so hard to find fault with others. my son wrestles for tohk. do the coaches get over excited at times yes. at the state tournanent did any one get removed? not from tohk, however i saw at least one coach from another club removed (no one mentioned him or his club and i wont either)
i saw many parents, coaches, and wrestlers, loose their composure, and act foolishly this weekend. in fact i cant remember attending a tournament where someone didn't, however to my knoweledge no one from our club has ever gotten on this forum and trashed anyone. i would suggest that publicly refusing to "recognize tohk for any kind of team championship" would show the same kind of poor sportsmanship as say refusing to shake someones hand after a match. i would also suggest publicly trashing someone the internet with out giving your name, would show the same poor sportmanship as say hiding behind someone and laughing.
since you seem to show the same tendencies you accuse others i suggest your credibility is some what questionable. as for tohk recruting. we had 9 state champions this weekend. i personally know how 4 of those came to the club, and they were not recruited in any way shape or form. 3 of them are deshasers and one a mccomb hopefully you dont think they recruited their own kids. this leaves 1 honestly i don't know how they came to be members of our club.
what i do know is as long as people can hide behind an alias they will continue to take shots at those who are sucessful

Parkwayred,

If I was incorrect about the manhattan clubs having wrestlers outside of the school district then I am sorry. But I was under the impression that there were a few that did indeed come from the outside. It is not like it would be a bad thing if they did. But you are wrong about Abilene. We have and still do have wrestlers from outside are community that wrestle for us. Do we recruit them, no, they come to our club because they like how we run practice, they like the coaches, and they know they will get a lot better than wrestling elsewhere. John Woodbridge wrestled for us last year, he is from Salina and I bleieve he finished 3rd this year, he since went back to Salina so he could wrestle with his friends. We have a few kids from Brookeville that also come. Also Elijah Madison practiced with us almost all year long. Anyway I don't want you to think I was talking bad about Manhattan cause I wasn't, I like the manhattan club very much, you guys have excellent coaches and are very good when it comes to sportsmanship at least as far as I have observed.

All-Star Teams? I guess that maybe if you consider how well these two clubs did at state you could consider them All-Star teams. That is not such a bad thing though. I know that these are both fine clubs and I have a lot of respect for individuals associated with each. Terry Cox and Charles Knox have a reputation outside of this state for a reason, because they produce quality wrestlers. I do believe that sometimes some of the Hard Knox coaches get a little too excited but I think we all do, at least I know I have.

I think some get on THOK and Brawlers because of jealousy. Frankly, I hope that we can beat their wrestlers because if we do we know we have beaten quality. At one time, we considered both clubs when moving here from Oklahoma. Their clubs along with several others were highly recommended. I am personally pleased with the team my son is on, Derby, and think it is best for him. While some may travel some distance for a team, that does not necessarily imply recruiting, and even if it does, so what? I do believe as Disney points out that it is important for the wrestlers to wrestle together through the year to develop a true team component. I do know this, I hope we as a team set as a goal to take more and more kids to state to wrestle, place, and win. I know we do that by providing the best room possible, as well as the best opportunities for the kids. We have a good club that I am certainly well pleased with them. To the Brawlers and TOHK, I know you are producing champions and respect that. You have given clubs in Kansas the numbers to go after. If we, and, or, other clubs do it, it makes wrestling better not just for our clubs but for the state. To that, I would say thanks for giving us such a high target to shoot for.

Nigel,

No disrespect was taken and I never intended to say Abilene recruited kids… What I was trying to say is to form an elite club will no doubt let some very quality kids slip through the cracks. Not everyone matures at the same level. I have seen very successful wrestlers at the kids level, not produce at the high school level and visa versa. My point being, sure we all could find a couple dozen kids and practice them five nights a week, make top level competitors and forget about the kid that may never place in a single tournament. The beauty of wrestling is that everyone can compete and be a better person for doing it. It teaches valuable lessons that can be used later in life.

How did this get from who won the team championship to knockin on other teams? to a big argue fest? MAN!!!

Lunintic,, i think some people have to much time on their hands.