Is it just me or does it seem like the referees at the state tournament go out of their way to make matches closer than they truly are. It seems like every year there is a contraversial match such as kearn vs. strawn this year. Just wondering if I was the only one?

Well how about next year we don't even have referees, and we let the coaches duke it out as to who gets which call.

Better yet lets just film each match and then after the match is over we have both coaches and 3 officials watch the match and decide who scored points and when.

And after the coaches duke it out you could have the fans vote.

Quite frankly I don't know why we even have officials anyway, all they do is screw kids out of matches anyway right?

I know for a fact that I wouldn't mind driving 360 miles round trip and waste 2 days out of my weekend just to make sure some kid I don't even know doesn't win a championship.

Or just have Salyer go up to the coach that lost and tell them how they got screwed over like he did this year at 4a.

Aaron just because they gave you room and board for the weekend doesn't mean you have to be their guardian. Officials, by their very nature have to have thick skin to do the job. Of all the people on here blasting the officiating this year why do you single out Richard to pick on?

Ohh thats right, don't EVER go to those off limit grounds of saying anything about an official no matter what he does, after all he will remember you for the next ten years. I want everyone on this forum to remember THE THREE BIG KEY WORDS IN OFFICIATING and they are AGREE,JUDGEMENT,AND OPINION. Now if we can get everyone to please stand with their hands over their hearts and say theese three words, we can all sit down like we are in church not say a word,smile and teach our kids to rise above the officiating by telling them your match should always be out of reach of the official by never being on the same level as your opponent. Like, just pin all your opponents for instance. If you can get the judgement of a pin. No cheif58 your not the only one but unlike a few refs when most coaches wake up the next morning they give a ref a NEW DAY , the benefit of the doubt, maybe he was tiredafter a grueling day of up and down, knowing the shortage and underpayment of ref's. It gets real old when five different refs can fall back on their JUDGEMENT,OR THEIR OPINION AND THE FACT THAT THEY CAN ALL AGREE that they never are wrong.

KANSAS WRESTLING IS GREAT

Room and board? HA! I didn't get paid for the weekend, I got 1 free meal and whatever they brought in to the official's room. As bad as I needed the money I turned it down, sometimes it's better to give to something you love for the fact you are giving back to it.

Officiating is a job and when people fail to do their job well, they get criticized. People will always be out their ready to criticize you for every mistake you make in your job. Live with it and remember this is not a charity thing you are doing. You get paid and can quit anytime, so quit if the heat is too much.

I’m not one to constantly bash officials, but this whole, “Why don’t you try it,” crybaby response to anyone that says anything negative about an official really gets on my nerves.

I am a coach and a teacher, and guess what, sometimes I get criticized and I didn’t tell the people who have criticized me some crybaby song about all the time I put in and they should try it. Sometimes I’ve told them, “Thanks, but I disagree,” and believe it or not I’ve sometimes said, “Yeah, I apologize. I should have handled that differently or I made a mistake.”

I definantly don't think everyone should be a referee! Some of the most criticizing people would get lost in the undertow of the action and fall flat on their face. It's definantly a challenge to say the least to put on the stripes. At the same token that's why certain people do certain things in life. Not everyone is going to be a CPA, and not everyone is going to be a trash collector. If it weren't for people willing to do jobs, this place would collapse fast!

Good points Rick. I agree. Unfortunately, it takes a humble person to say 'i made a mistake'. And, humility is in short supply. But, that doesn't change the truth of what you wrote above.

Just be glad that none of you coaches are college coaches, cuase guess what, you get fined big bucks at the collegiate level for criticizing officials. A good point was made though, officials CAN be wrong when some calls are made. But then again you don't see all the officials comming on this public forum week after week blaming a wrestlers loss on their coaches lack of good practices during the week, or lack of motivation to condition their kids. These factors are just as important as the official in the match.

These whole conversations have run their course on this website and I wish for the sanity of everyone that the moderators would stop allowing the bashing of officials and wrestlers alike on here.

So Nigel, if were not supposed to critize refs and were not going to critize wrestlers what topics would you like to for us to talk about on here, and i have been a ref so i know its not the easiest job, but some times refs do make bad calls and some times they make good calls. There are some very good refs out there like Ron Hage(?), Travis Schaley, Rob Ross, all three of those i am always happy to see on the mat, but there are some that i just dont trust to make the right call when the match is on the line. I think thats what this guy is trying to say. Agree with him or not he has a point. I think most refs do a good job most of the time, but there are still refs you dont like to see on the mat when your kids is reffing.

Yah, wouldn't it be nice if when someone said I did a bad job, I could just say, "that's a judgement call, you get a warning" or, "that's unsportsmanlike and if you do that again, you are ejected". Does not that seem ridiculous? Refs have way too much power, they do not make mistakes and they hide behind the "judgement thing". It's too easy and they can make any call that they want. But, by the same token, that is the way it is, and if I don't like it, I guess that I can always do something else.

Jason,

I certainly agree with you that there are some officials who probably shouldn't be on the mat. And I say that with a lot of carefulness. As an official I don't think it is my place to put down other officials, cause lord knows there are other officials who wouldn't agree with me. But we are talking about state level officials here. This generally means these guys are some of the best in the state.

Now as far as judegement and power are concerned. Officials in our sport are setup up the way they are for a reason. That reason being that "control" and many other situations are a matter of perception. There is absolutly no other way to call a wrestling match. The only other way is to have 2 or three officials in a match, and as you all know that does not often change the way something is called.

Our system is setup in such a way so that coaches cannot argue every single close call which they would do if we didn't have the warning/ejection system that we do. Not even you WSEWC could argue that. We see it all the time in Kids wrestling, where coaches are up at the table constantly. Now we are more lenient at kids levels for several reasons. 1. Many coaches at that level don't even know the rules, and tossing somebody out of a tournament because of ignorance is kinda bad policy. 2. Touurnament directors hate to see ejections because then the club of the ejected coach won't wanna come back the next year.

Believe it or not WSEWC, the system is setup in such a way that bad officials never get the chance to officiate at upper level events, and the ones that do mess up end up not getting to come back to certain tournaments.

I don't think officials are infallible, and I know im certainly not. I am however confident in 99.5% of my calls. I have waved off 1 takedown all year long this year, I knew I was wrong when I made the call, I walked over to both coaches and explained it, and even the coach of the kid who got the points taken back away thanked me.

The thing that really bothered me about the Kern-Strawn match is how many times I have heard already from people on here that "Well the first 2 periods were non stop actions ..." The thing you all must understand is you don't get brownie points or kudos for things you have already done in the match. The rules say stalling can occur at any time in the match.

We all have times when we think that officials have made bad calls, but i personally don't think a public forum is a place to come on and bash officials. Every year less and less officials are registering for wresltling, and more and more officials who are in are not coming back ( I personally know of 5 just this year ), and the reason I hear the most is they are tired of all the complaining. I think that is very sad and a blackmark on our sport. Keep this up and you'll be hiring high schoolers to officiate your matches.

I have long enjoyed most of the post of Nigel Isom and enjoy him most when he is giving clarifications on different rulings. BUT...to think that a moderator should delete a negative because its subject matter happens to be about reffing and not about a paticular ref in MY OPINION is wrong. I particularly enjoyed the advise from your ole favorite (gutwrench1) for officials to check their ego at the door. I think most coaches would AGREE that their hands are basically tied, and short of being ejected there is really nothing they can do about below average reffing!!! It is my JUDGEMENT that a ref should be reveiwed for ejecting a coach and his actions should go before a board of 5 COACHES to determine if his actions were justified or if he was just being arrogant and thin-skinned. I HAVE SEEN IT BOTH WAYS MANY TIMES. If found to be justified, the school dist. of the ejected coach in question should take the appropiate measures according to their policy on a coaches behaivor. If found to be thin-skinned then the ref should have to be re-evaluated according to his past history record on ejecting coaches. The ref in question should not be permitted to ref for a certain time period in which the 5 COACH panel would decide how long that time should be. A ref can actually cost a coach his job AND THAT MY FREIND, IS 100% WRONG. In my OPINION that is way too much power. If a ref faced the same accountability as a coach would, I beleive they would be a little more reserved in pulling the trigger to eject a coach. There are many issues we should all be able to discuss in an open forum with civility and keep and an open mind that everyone has an OPINION, whether it's right or wrong.

KANSAS WRESTLING IS GREAT

Well Mr Church.

As i've said previously about coaches at the national level, officials share the same fate. If a referee in the NCAA fails his evaluations which are done by appointed people he will not get to officiate again at that level. I don't think we are at a point here in Kansas where we need evaluators for officials just yet.

Where I do see a problem however is some school administrators and coaches hiring the same officials every year for their tournaments. This is really counter productive for the system in general. Coaches get used to seeing the same officials throughout the year and then they get to the state series and see knew officials and are blown away by difference in calls,

Im not really the type of official who ejects a coach just because they complain about everything. I save those for the ones that are verbally abusive ( name calling etc etc ).

Mike I agree with you, it should be okay to discuss certain issues on here openly. However just in the last week there have been at least 7 different topics that all deal with the same issues and its not constructive at all, thats the key here.

Well Said Church Sr. (and WSEWC )

I agree with Nigel that the ref needs to have the power to control the match, but with this power comes responsibility. Referees should absolutely be held to the same standards of accountability as a coach.

I completely disagree that a "warning/ejection" system needs to be in place in order to keep the coach from questioning "every close call". As a coach, I have seen many calls that went the way of the other wrestler, but in most situations I do not question them because I understand that they are "judgement" calls that most of the time could go either way, and I can respect that. However, if I see a call that in my mind is "bad" (or even worse, a series of them), I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be allowed to ask the ref (during a break and in a respectful manner) what they based their call on without it being it being considered "unsportsmanlike". If the ref has the power to make the call, then they should be able to explain why they did it, and correct it if necessary. I don't expect them to change their mind every time I disagree with them, but at the very least it would help my wrestlers understand what they did "wrong" so that it doesn't continue to cost them in future matches. If this is handled in a respectful manner, what's the big problem?

I AGREE with MC Delta T,Nigel Isom, and WSEWC on all their last post. Very civil to, if I may say so. LOL Now Brewski Time...

KANSAS WRESTLING IS GREAT