I just got home and have been trying to get caught up on all the post since last night.
In my suggestion for seeding, it was as explained above by Sportsfan02. Only the Champions will be considered. There are always going to be upsets even at the State. I will attempt to paste my proposal on here and let all of you look at it. Tell me what you think, rip it apart or make suggestions. My goal is to give the High School Activity Association a tool which can be used easily and hopefully improve this great sport. I've been Coaching Wrestling 32 years and these are just some ideas I've been thinking aobut.

State Wrestling Championship Seeding

In order to make the State Wrestling Tournament more competitive for the athletes as well as more exciting for the fans, we need to seed the participants. Many times, the most evenly matched competitors are paired in the semifinals, which takes some of the excitement from the finals.

The KSHSAA could resolve this by seeding the regional finalists and still use the current formula for all remaining placers. I realize this has been discussed in the past, but with a few specific seeding criteria, this could be accomplished without delaying the pairings. The result will be a more evenly balanced semifinal round and the opportunity for returning state finalists to meet in the finals match.

Proposed Seeding Criteria
Unlike the criteria for an invitational tournament, these criteria are specific and listed in order of preference. Only the regional champions will be seeded and all other placers from their regional will follow the formula according to their champion’s placement.

Seeding Criteria
1. Returning state champion at same weight
2. Returning state champion
3. Previous state placer
4. Regional championship over a state placer
5. Outstanding record

These criteria suggestions could easily separate opponents and help showcase our state finals. There will be individuals who meet these criteria, but may not be the regional champion. They are not seeded. They lost their seeding criteria by not placing first in their regional.

Seeding Procedure
All regional tournaments will report results to the KSHSAA and have them placed into the formula as in the past. Once pairings are made, they will be reviewed by a panel of three former coaches for each classification. This would require 12 individuals to be assigned by the KSHSAA. These 12 would meet for approximately two hours, review the pairings and make necessary adjustments to the A, B, C & D assignments in order to separate the seeds.

In some weight classes, the computer program will take care of things automatically. In most cases, it would be a simple matter of switching two regional placements into the formula.

The brackets would still show no preference to a specific location of the first through fourth seed. The goal is to separate the top competitors by use of the criteria.

The seeding criteria are only suggestions and with review, might need to be revised. We should limit the number of criteria to no more than five.

Terry Alley

email : talley137@yahoo.com

I will try to give an example of how this might work using the 4A 152 pound bracket from last year. Hopefully everyone can see that we still use the random drawing from the States formula and then just make one or two switches of Regionals to hopefully correct the parings. In some or even many cases, the States formula may already solve this problem and noone is even moved. No one even needs to know which weight classes have been changed, since the pairing would go to the panel first and not the Coaches. Hopefully this will Paste in here OK.

Sample Tournament Seeding Wt. 152 Seeding Criteria Used:

1 State Champion
2 State Placer
3 Overall Record

Elliott being the returning State Champion will be seperated from Schroeder
who is a returning runner-up.
Allen from Clay Center is a State Placer but is not in consideration due to
not being a Regional Champion. ( Only Regional Champions are seeded)
Overall record was used to determine which Champion from the top half would
move to the bottom. Mason's 39-8 is a better record than Wilsons 24-10.
Therefore, Mason will change places with Elliott and their Regional placers wil
follow the format in their respective places.

Sorry, I tried to paste the actual brakets on here but they were all scrambled when I pasted them on. You will probably need to go to last years bracket and look at the 152 weight for the post above to make a lot of sense.

If anyone wants a copy of my proposal, email me and I will try to send it to you. Talk this over at your Regionals this week and again at State. Lets see if we can work the bugs out the proposal and get it to the KSHSAA next year.

Outstanding record is not a good criteria. You will have wrestlers with soft schedules have the advantage. head to head or like opponent would need to be there in place. I still think something like 3/4 majority vote by the coaches on if there are clear 1 & 2 seeds and that fixes the problem.

Outstanding record is not the most important consideration, but needs to be there. If a kid comes to the State with a 30-0 record reguardless of what you may call soft schedule, he still needs consideration. Obviously, State Placers and Champions would get first consideration. I feel the same way about 5th and 6th place wrestlers. In the two larger classes, 1/2 of all competitors go to State and 1 in 6 get a medal. When I met with the KWCA we had the same discussion on record and 5th and 6th placers. In most cases there would be very few times these circumstances would be considered. I do feel though, if you have two individuals with undefeated records with a good quanity of matches, say 25 or more, then isn't it best to seperate those two and give them the chance to enter the finals undefeated. If they both make it, there will be a little more interest in the match due to the undefeated records.

How would you seed a freshman that wins regionals? You would have no previous year placing to consider.

Thats true, and to some extent, he has to prove himself. Several years back I had a young man by the name of Drake who ended the season 32-0 as a freshman. After his freshman year, it was alot easier to get him some consideration. As far as answering your question, his only criteria is going to be an outstanding record. Many times these young men are at 103 and the only criteria is record for anyone in the bracket. In that case I would let the formula handle it, unless there were two undefeated records that might meet in the semi's.

Here is the big thing to me as a coach. I can live with the bad luck of a random draw that doesn't go my way and have no one to be mad at. However, if a bad seeding decision does not go my way at state, I can't live with that and will have someone (the seeding committee) to be furious at.

Rick,
I understand what you are saying. Again, what I am proposing is not a seeding meeting. The majority of the time, the random formula will work fine. What we are looking at most of the time is for two outstanding individuals in the same weight class that need to be seperated. I looked at last years 4A brackets and in reality, I would have only made about 4 or 5 moves. In those cases, it would just be swaping two quarter brackets.

Another thing is, the panel would see the State Formula pairings, suggest what changes they would make, if the panel agrees it helps seperate the best then make the change. When they finish, it would go back to KSHSAA and they would send it out to the Coaches. No one would really know if that particular weight was formula or had an adjustment.

Let me give an example.
You have a freshman that is ranked 2nd in the state. Record is somewhere around 25-6...has not wrestled anyone else that is ranked in the state...only one is a returning placer at state....say the top 4 win their region....then what?

back to last years 140 weight class if you look at who placed all four kids that came from one regional at chapman were in the top 5 at state and if you look back over the last 10 years you will see that trend has continued and I agree that they are good kids but as for changeing the way they seet them at state I think they should start by looking at whos in what regional. wrestlers like Elliott would win it any way you seat them thats just a fact, and there are others like pyle and the list goes on. It's great to see great kids like them and a great thing for the state of Kansas but other kids need a chance to go to state and be part of the big dance

In this case I see no two individuals which stand out as outstanding. Let the formula do the job.

I think that weight had one kid that was extremely outstanding and was a returning state champ and he was not from the Chapman Regional.

I think the formual method has holes in it and makes it to complex. I also agree a true seed meeting could be even more unfair as coaches will do what they can to better their team. I think it can be done very simply. By Sunday at 7pm all coaches must submit to KSHsaa for each weight class in their class if they feel there is a clear 1 & 2 (one seeds only) and if so who they are. If there is a large percentage (like 70%) that say yes AND they are consistantly the same 2 individuals KSHSAA makes sure they are on seperate sides of the bracket and draw the other two. If there is a large percent that say no or there is a frequent 3 guys named you do it the same random way. Nobody even needs to know if the bracket seperated the kids or it was completely random.

Yes some coaches will still try to sway but it will be hard for them to do so if 80% of the coaches disagree with them. The Coaches know if there are 2 wrestlers that are clearly better than the others. This is a simple way to fix the problem with out getting to complex. Sorry coaches it does require about 15 minutes of your time after a long regional tourny.

yes your right there were to other kids at 140 last year that placed but look at the chapman regional all four kids from that regional placed in the top 6. and if you look back for the last 8 or ten years you will see what i'am talking about.

All good points and a lot of what if situations and in the great world of sports and wrestling the what if's are what makes it great and fun to watch. Leave it random and let the boys take care of it on the mat.

Record is not a good criteria in most cases. If record were to be used it should be a significant percent difference. somewhere between 8-12 percent. The problem with record is it has the potential to punish the kids who are seeking the tougher competition. Having that as a criteria could influence teams to seek out a little softer record to pad their percent and draw better seeds. Record is about as clear of a way to decide a seed as drawing it. At least drawing it puts both wrestlers on an even playing field.

Chapman has had a regional for the last 8 to 10 years? That is not fair.

These are all good comments and arguments. But if you look at the Criteria you will see that Outstanding Record is the only record mentioned. It is also only considered in the event of other things being equal. Even then, if you will notice, I used outstanding records as an example 30-0. Any kid with 4 or 5 losses still may be the best kid but that is a good record not an outstanding one. My intent for record is to again only seperate the two who stand out. Two undefeated records with a adequate number of matches (I would say at least 20) should probably be seperated IF NO OTHER CRITERIA TAKE EFFECT.

On any given year there are going to be weak or strong weights in all Regionals. We all have cases of that and many times possible State Placers get left at home. The one good thing about the 2 best wrestlers in the state being in the Regional together is that they will be seperated at State reguardless of pairings.

Keep the suggestions coming. Just remember:
1.The KSHSAA is not going to have a seeding meeting for this.
2. It must be something which can be accomplished quickly so the pairings can still come out sometime Sunday after the Regionals
3. Criteria for determining the seperations need to be easy to determine. (NOTICE I SAID "SEPERATIONS" NOT SEEDS)
4. Remember we still have to wrestle the matches. No formula or seeding will take care of kids wrestling the best or worst tournament of their career. That is what makes the sport so exciting.

I love how DII in NCAA does it...same as KSHSAA. Top 4 advance, the only thing I would like to see is a True 4th wrestled, so if you lose in your semi, and the guy that beats you wins 3rd in the conso finals, you can challenge for 4th place (if you haven't lost to that guy already in the bracket) for a chance to make it to state.