Willy,

Your feelings about KSHSAA aside, do you believe that Kansas wrestling was stronger with higher quality wrestlers in 1970 than today? Were we spitting out a lot of D1 and olympic wrestlers in 1968 and it went bad in 1973? I don't remember it that way.

Should we abandon 8 man football in Kansas since those state champions are clearly not the best team in the state? I know wrestling is an individual sport, but it is also a team sport and the team state championship is important also. Should not Minneapolis and Ellis have the ability to compete with like sized schools annually for the team championship? Isn't part of the excitement of wrestling found in Norton vs Smith Center and Abiline vs Clay Center? It's not all about generating individuals who are world class wrestlers, and you can't do that in one weekend anyway. Zach Roberson's wrestling career was not affected by the lack of competition at state in high school.

I suppose we could teach three of the 4 state champions the lesson that they aren't the best in the state , but I'm pretty sure they are all familiar with the lessons of working hard, preparing correctly and making sacrifices to achieve a goal, and I doubt they appreciate their championships being called watered down.

Windy,

Funny, I agree with everything you have posted even though you thought you were disagreeing with me. The best TEAM isn't really determined with our present system. We NEED a dual state tournament to determine that. INDIVIDUALS are not disadvantaged by being at a smaller school as it is an INDIVIDUAL sport in the present state tournament format.

Zach Roberson made his career what it turned out to be in spite of a system that does not promote excellence but promotes mediocrity. I do think the state champions, pre 70's, achievements were greater than those of today's system. Just like in any sport, athletes and technique are far more advanced today. The summer and kids program give a far greater opportunity for improvement than anything they had during that era.

On the topic of 8 man football. You must admit that it is SILLY that we have two classes of eight man football. That is REALLY splitting hairs. Our state's education and extracurricular programs are in sore need of overhauling. They promote mediocrity, socialism, and waste lots of taxpayer's dollars. We need to promote the pursuite of excellence, continuous improvement, consolidation of small schools, and reward for achievement.

JMO

I don't really know what the jist of this might be. Evidently some of you feel that one state champion or many in our state are inferior or some are better than others. What I do know from coaching in every one of those state tourneys at one point or another is that I saw great wrestlers in each and every one of them. Every state in the country has a state champ or two that might not be as good as some others. I don't think that is the important thing. We are task with giving kids a great experience and as many opportunities as we can. I think Kansas does a great job of that. We do as well as anyone per capita at the collegiate level. I coached against Zach and four of those other four timers in the state tourney and I can tell you that they had an easy time of it because they were great not because the comp was bad.

I don't believe we are inferior because of our system and I do think freestyle "coaches" and a lot of kids "coaches" benefit from a lot of other coaches work. We always seem to want what somebody else thinks is right or what someone else does. We been doin' this for a good little while here in this state and not all of us did it badly all those years.

Westfahl,

Imagine how things would be if we always did things the same way just because it seemed okay at the time. "We are good enough so lets just rest on our laurels and change nothing." That sort of mentality will lead to NO improvement! How many national tournaments have you been to in the lsat 20 years? How many other state tournaments? I live in Kansas and I like living here but I am not an ostrich. You are stuck in a Kansas silo! You don't want to hire coaches from outside of the state, you don't want to try other state's ideas because YOU deem our current system adequate. I am not sure why you think your coaching experience in Kansas makes you a national or college level expert. Your experience, in my opinion, doesn't validate your opinion on change or invalidate mine because I don't have equivalent experience.

Nothing has been said to discredit anyone's coaching job or performance as a wrestler. Changes COULD and WILL improve the quality of wrestling. You cannot deny that if the best Kansas wrestlers had to wrestle the best opponents in our state the bar would be raised.

In closing, there is a lot more wrestling going on out there than our four state tournaments and the coaches we have in Kansas. It is okay to learn from them.

Will;
Actually I've been to a couple of tourneys over the years . I am just taking a point of view that is different from yours. We all have a sort of God given right to do that I think. Sorry if it doesn't agree with your point of view. I don't spend any time worrying about whether or not I am an "expert" on anything, I was simply taking an alternate view than the one you may have expressed. Sorry if that offends you.

What motivates me really in this regard, is the sense that our coaches and wrestlers always seem to have to be defending themselves for being from here. I am a little sensitive to that and sometimes feel the need to stand up for them. I think we have way to many "experts" around right now. I don't want to be one I just have a point of view thats all.

Westfahl,

I am offended by the stance "we don't need to change anything". It isn't a matter of whether you agree with what I would like to change, it is a problem that NOTHING can improve if we don't change anything. It is a problem that too many take your position and don't want to put forth the effort to learn and open their mind to change. I know that you have been to a few tournaments "over the years" but have you haven't been lately to Cadet Duals, Junior Duals, Fargo, High School Nationals, USA Folkstyle Nationals, etc. then your opinion is without the necessary experience it would need to be current with today's standards. Have you been to another state's Highs School state tournament? When they are all at one site it is an awesome experience, one that we cannot remotely compare ours to. If you don't want to be an exper then why do you keep qualifying your point of view with your background?

An idiot is defined as someone who does the same thing over and over but expects different results. I feel like our systems and those who create and support them are expecting our quality of wrestling to improve without changing them, when I am paying for those systems, I am offended.

Then move! If Kansas sucks so bad then simply move to another state. Instead of being here on our board running us down why not go to another state's board and tell them how great they are? I for one am tired of you always dogging our state, coaches and wrestlers with how bad we are! If we all suck so bad then again, MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE!

Sport0,
Who is "us"? Do you have a frog in your pocket? How many coaches and wrestlers have I dogged on this post? Not moving and not going away. Sucks for you! I despise the system my tax dollars pay for and if you are part of that system then I am dogging you. I back my comments up with facts you attack me, I back my commitment up with my time and money and you dog me. I think I speak for many when I say put something worthwhile on this board or go away. Put a face and name to your comments or go away. You continue to cowardly attack me and you obviously have no respect for me or improvement so PLEASE GO AWAY!!!

Take this for what it is worth. When Ark City was dominating every class in the state they were still taking their lumps in Oklahoma. Now that Bishop Carrol is dominating they are wrestling in Oklahoma. Will is easy to get upset with because he is passionate, and very blunt. I agree we need some change...Kansas does hold back it's athletes...in every sport. I applaud Will for the simple fact that he is not fighting for his son who is in High School...he is trying to make it better for mine who will be in High School in six years.

Chad I have nothing against a person being passionate or blunt but this is getting ridiculous. He continues to deride our state, coaches and schools and I take that personally. If you remember when he first started this crap it was, our state sucks in comparison to other states. Our coaches and administrators were either lazy or imcompentent or both if they didn't feel as he did. When I challenged him to prove that, he couldn't. Then it became, we are falling behind other states. Again, all the evidence points to just the opposite occuring. So lately it has become we need to change for the sake of change.
I am not one who believes our state holds us back in any way except we do make an effort to educate our athletes where other states think that is the job of private schools. If that holds us back at times, sobeit. I believe, that arguably this past years senior class was the best that this state has ever produced as a whole. While the success of this class may be a peak, I don't believe that any future fall in quality will be dramatic or far. Changes will occur in the normal process of things, as they have since wrestling began in this state, but it won't be because someone is yelling the sky is falling.
I will continue to call Cokely out when ever I feel he is wrong and he will continue to answer with rants of name calling.

Who is this anonymous poster (Sportsfan02) who refuses to reveal himself? Will Cokeley has simply expressed an opinion, citing the need for a democratic change in our rules and procedures. If you don't agree with him, then enter into the democratic debate in a mature and reasonable fashion. This anonymous posting is cowardly and self-defeating, if you don't have the guts to say who you are then stay away. I don't agree with everything Cokeley says, but I support his right to say it and admire his admitting who he is. If you want to criticize me, then do so here or privately, but I promise I will not hide behind my screen name.

Tom Williams
wilgt@msn.com

Sporto,
You always post on this forum attacking Will and others, yet you never post your name. I have come to the conclusion that you are a spineless individual. It is easy to criticize and hide behind an alias. Personally I would like to see you and others like you to move then maybe we can have some meaningful change in Kansas wrestling.

Tom Baughman

Why not trim a week off of the Regular season, who needs league tournaments, have regionals, class championships, and then state (which would be what you presently call grand state). This would eliminate the complaint that we were having two state championships. Invite the top 4 from each Class Championship. Then the following week we could invite the top two teams from each regional and have a dual state to crown the BEST TEAM from each classification. This would mean that NO TEAM SCORES would be kept at the Class Championships or the Individual State Championships.

I remember comments of this type directed at me when I first MOVED BACK to Kansas by Sportsfan02. I will admit, he has been an antagonist for me since 2002. BTW I have lived here over 15 years, tried to contribute to this sport, and this state, yet this person seems to feel as if they can continue to make judgments as to who deserves to live here, and who don’t.. I simply don't understand him, nor do I understand why an anonymous poster is allowed to continue to make these comments and personal attacks. Will knows, he and I don’t always agree, (most of the time but not all of the time) that said, we have learned to practice this thing called adult behavior. I have no doubt that Will is passionate about our sport and desires to make it better. Will and I, and I believe others as indicated by comments here have done things like talking out disagreements, disagreeing and moving on that type of thing without ever making comments like this. Yet, Sportsfan02 is allowed to continue violate forum rules and guidelines which he has indicated he approved of. The bottom line is no negative posts about another individual are supposed to be made unless using your real name, yet, exceptions are made for Sportsfan02, why?

I also challenge that Sportsfan02 seems to disagree with this concept which supersedes Kansas Citizenship that is American Citizenship and the right to free speech. When you tell someone who states something you don’t like to “MOVE” as you have Will and me over the past, then you take upon yourself the rights of totalitarian. While getting my degree and being involved in my graduate studies I studied quite a bit this thing called logic. Using logic, views as expressed by Sportsfan02 to move, get out of Kansas and the like would have resulted in things like continuation of slavery, continuation of segregation, refusal of women’s suffrage and so much more because their view indicated that they know it all, and that people never have the right to protest or bring about change. Heck using this logic, if practiced we would still be under the Union Jack instead of the Stars and Stripes. I challenge, this is a dangerous view and un American.

Over the years, through various individuals I have come to be fairly certain that Sportsfan02 is in reality Greg Boucher of Augusta. I have referred to him as Greg in posts before, which he never corrected me and responded to those posts. One may also notice that often times, after he is called out by name he removes himself from posts for a period of time.

I as well call out for Sportsfan02 to come forward and admit who he is. Frankly you discredit the sport of wrestling, your club, and our state. If anyone needs to shut up, it is you, you may think you are fooling people as to your identity, but you are not, why not just admit it? I suspect you have your reasons, but as far as I am concerned, they are all cowardly. I know you have your buddies who you have thought you could trust your identity with, but guess what, you were wrong on some of those as well.

Will,
That is an excellent idea, I think that format would add some excitement to Kansas wrestling and would crown a true state champ.

Nice post Mike. Straight talk is refreshing, isn't it?

There are people in our HS administration, KSHSAA, HS coaches, Kids coaches, parents, etc. that want to hold back kids that are willing to work their tails off, so that their kids can not work their tails off, and still compete.

Will has put his money where his mouth is with his tireless promotion of the betterment of KS wrestling. Let me rattle off a few things that he has been a big part of for Team Kansas:
Middle school duals
Schoolboy duals
Park Hill duals
Cadet duals
Junior duals
Fargo

When someone needs something, they ask Will, and he is dumb enough to say yes every time, because if it is good for KS wrestling, he is going to back it 100%.

If you are going to dog Will about something, dog him about the Wichita classic, because he is wrong about a few of the things he says about that.

Mr Cokeley, I agree with your statement in regards to (Grand State). This discussion has been thrown back and forth more than once.

I am originally from California where there is only one true state champion. You must work your way up to the State tournament and first must get passed the first three tournaments as top three in each. They are League, Divisionals, Then Masters, LASTLY STATE! When you arrive to state there are no mistakes. Only the best have made it there! This sequence of tournaments removes the possibility of kids making it to STATE accidently.
For anyone that wrestled in this type of wrestling state where the process to get to state is (THAT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT), The statement (I MADE IT TO STATE) carries alot more weight.

Tommy Dynamite,

Give credit where credit is due. This is your idea with some slight modifications.

It seems as if Sport0 has mysteriously disappeared from this forum. He must not have the cajones to defend himself. It is easy to hide behind a sceen name but when he gets called out he is gone. I always thought he was a p%&@# now my suspicions are verified.
Tom Baughman