You never stated your case on Gentzler either. That's the way the rankings work. If you disagree, give your criteria and I change the rankings if the information is accurate. Just saying, "He's had plenty of quality wins" is not criteria.

Whatever, it was almost a direct quote from yours. I don't want to argue about it though, I respect your ranking.

Taylor Wuthnow from abilene beat Michael Patenaude at the abilene clay center dual.

2008-09 All-Class Ranking:

TEAMS - All-Class:

1. Goddard - 6A
2. Emporia - 5A
3. Colby - 4A
4. Clay Center - 4A
5. Wichita Heights - 6A
6. Derby - 6A
7. Bishop Carroll - 5A
8. Liberal - 5A
9. Norton - 321A
10. Abilene - 4A


103
1. Roger Windham - 12 - DB - 6A
2. Colby Watters - 9 - ARK - 5A
3. Aaron Seybold - 9 - PT - 5A
4. Bo Pursel - 9 - LS - 5A
5. Austin Hood - 9 - LOU - 4A
6. Konner Kriss - 9 - COL - 4A
7. Luke Cole - 12 - AB - 4A
8. Dylan Schumacher - 9 - TMP - 321A
9. Hunter Stalford - 9 - CV - 4A
10. Alex Wolf - 9 - SV - 4A


112
1. Kenneth Ornelas - 12 - CH - 4A
2. Isaac Ruiz - 11 - JC - 6A
3. Taylor Moeder - 10 - SJA - 4A
4. Alan Callahan - 12 - BAL - 4A
5. Dalton Miller - 11 - WC - 6A
6. Nathan Reed - 11 - CB - 4A
7. Trevor Boyer - 11 - MV - 5A
8. Francisco Antillon - 11 - SC - 4A
9. Adrian Salas - 11 - LB - 5A
10. Dane Norris - 10 - MH - 6A


119
1. Jake Gentzler - 10 - AC - 5A
2. Jeff Vesta - 12 - MH - 6A
3. Garrett Jones - 11 - ARK - 5A
4. Zac Sparr - 12 - RH - 4A
5. Nathan Furches - 12 - CL - 4A
6. Tyler Stokes - 12 - GE - 5A
7. James Wauer - 12 - WA - 5A
8. Zach Tanenbaum - 10 - BVN - 6A
9. Dondre Davis - 12 - WH - 6A
10t. Brett LaMar - 11 - SL - 321A
10t. Blaine Smith - 11 - SS - 5A
10t. Dan Weigel - 12 - PL - 321A


125
1. Chase Nitcher - 11 - VC - 5A
2. Daniel DeShazer - 10 - WH - 6A
3. Chaz Lawrence - 12 - OS - 6A
4. Derek Weller - 11 - PI - 4A
5. Symon Seaton - 11 - BL - 4A
6. Dylan Penka - 10 - BC - 5A
7. Aaron Patton - 12 - WEL - 321A
8. Devin Frye - 12 - EU - 321A
9. Alex Bontz - 9 - WI - 4A
10. Jace Campbell - 11 - OA - 321A


130
1. Ryne Cokeley - 10 - SJA - 4A
2. Trent Cox - 12 - MZ - 6A
3. Colt Rogers - 11 - SC - 321A
4. Rylan Dalke - 12 - NT - 5A
5. Spencer Blew - 10 - LS - 5A
6. Kash Biddle - 11 - ARK - 5A
7. Trey Houlden - 10 - GD - 6A
8. Bradley Little - 10 - DB - 6A
9. Derek Schnittker - 11 - HUG - 4A
10. Colton Duhr - 9 - AN - 4A


135
1. C.J. Napier - 12 - CO - 4A
2. Kendric Maple - 12 - WH - 6A
3. Tyler Anderson - 11 - CC - 4A
4. Bryce Hood - 11 - LOU - 4A
5. Danny Floyd - 11 - OS - 321A
6. Sal Tovar - 12 - EMP - 5A
7. Kaenon Keiswetter - 11 - NT - 321A
8. Cade Hewitt - 12 - BE - 321A
9. Shae Hinman - 11 - AC - 5A
10. Ricky Creek - 12 - MRV - 321A


140
1. Joey Dozier - 11 - GC - 6A
2. Parker Madl - 11 - BV - 6A
3. Dustin Zahorsky - 12 - SL - 321A
4. Cade Blair - 11 - VC - 5A
5. Cameron Jesseph - 12 - CH - 4A
6. Tavo Dikin - 12 - EMP - 5A
7. Cody Shavlik - 11 - DB - 6A
8. Jesse Gantz - 12 - ST - 321A
9. Codie Bontz - 11 - WI - 4A
10. Linwood Peoples - 12 - BVNW - 6A


145
1. Mitchell Means - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Colby Crank - 12 - HUT - 5A
3. Trevor Rempe - 12 - SC - 321A
4. Cas Spangler - 12 - BE - 321A
5. Cole Zoglman - 12 - GP - 321A
6. Zane Wickham - 12 - HAY - 5A
7. Tyler Davis - 11 - MCP - 5A
8. Jake Walker - 11 - STA - 5A
9. Kyle McGoldrick - 11 - VC - 5A
10. Jake Hattabaugh - 10 - AN - 4A


152
1. Chris Watson - 12 - AC - 5A
2. Ryan Houlden - 12 - GD - 6A
3. Jordan Brown - 12 - PT - 5A
4. Derek Newell - 12 - UL - 4A
5. Nathan Sommer - 12 - PV - 4A
6. Marshall McCall - 12 - SC - 321A
7. Reece Wright-Conklin - 9 - LAW - 6A
8. Blake Fulbright - 12 - MZ - 6A
9. Tyler Sutherland - 12 - LB - 5A
10. Todd Curtis - 11 - GE - 5A


160
1. Tyler Caldwell - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Kyle Detmer - 12 - BC - 5A
3. Benny Armstrong - 11 - AN - 4A
4. Travis Rempe - 12 - SC - 321A
5. Ryan Wuthnow - 11 - AB - 4A
6. Corey Engstrom - 12 - HOI - 321A
7. Tyler Baughman - 10 - LS - 5A
8. John Hambleton - 11 - LC - 4A
9. Jess Lemon - 12 - CH - 4A
10. Ethan Mumaw - 10 - JW - 4A


171
1. Breck Arnberger - 12 - CB - 4A
2. Chase Nelson - 12 - WH - 6A
3. Alex Feldkamp - 12 - DB - 6A
4. Ryan Taylor - 12 - GL - 321A
5. Tyler Hasenbank - 12 - CON - 4A
6. Noel Richardson - 12 - CH - 4A
7. Jake Price - 12 - CV - 4A
8. Jonathan Truman - 11 - KMC - 5A
9. Chaston Hoeme - 12 - SC - 4A
10. Cole Geisen - 12 - HOL - 4A


189
1. Boaz Beard - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Mark Kolmer - 11 - EMP - 5A
3. Joel Marrs - 12 - CC - 4A
4. Darnell Bortz - 12 - PRT - 4A
5. Nate Davis - 12 - LB - 5A
6. Aron Elsen - 12 - GB - 5A
7. Luke Hirschler - 12 - BC - 5A
8. Andrew Wahlmeier - 12 - RC - 321A
9. Fernando Martinez - 12 - GL - 321A
10. Brandon Reif - 12 - WC - 6A


215
1. Tanner Kriss - CB - 4A
2. Kyle Caylor - 11 - WNW - 6A
3. Steven Kyler - 12 - EL - 321A
4. Jacob Nowak - 12 - STA - 5A
5. Howard Johnson - 12 - GB - 5A
6. Josh Hicks - 11 - GD - 6A
7. Jake Cole - 12 - BC - 5A
8. Taylor Wuthnow - 12 - AB - 4A
9. Kendall Pierce - 12 - CIR - 4A
10. Michael Patenaude - 12 - CC - 4A


285
1. B.J. Finney - 11 - AN - 4A
2. Lucas Vincent - 11 - ON - 6A
3. Trey Page - 11 - WNW - 6A
4. Lorenzo Serna - 11 - EMP - 5A
5. Kyle Westmoreland - 12 - DB - 6A
6. Tony Marquez - 12 - BC - 5A
7. J.J. Rice - 11 - PH - 321A
8. Luke Keener - 12 - HOI - 321A
9. Ross Addison - 12 - CI - 321A
10t. Ricky Gomez - 12 - LB - 5A
10t. Tank Burns - 11 - COL - 4A

**THESE RANKINGS ARE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE KWCA RANKINGS**

Saying this in a nice way! What is your criteria? When Tanenbaum was beat by a non ranking kid. My opinion you would have to move the other kids up and him out? But this is your game.

Let's don't keep secrets. Who was the "non ranking kid"?

As far as I know Zack has NOT lost to any unranked opponents but I could be wrong. If I am, please tell The Chief who it is... I think that most of the rankings are based on fact but sometimes there are not enough facts so you have to gather opinions and do the best you can.

By the way, in the mythical Chief Classic, who would be the class champion, 4A or 5A?

Renegade spends a great deal of time on the rankings. He does a pretty good job for the most part and is very proud of his work. It can be very difficult to rank those wrestlers that never wrestle common opponents especially if they are from completely different regions. However,I have noticed that his presumptions on "who would be better than whom" do not take into account for wrestler's improvement from a previous year's result, assume that the "big" name is always better than the "lesser" known wrestler and that he does at times show bias with certain individuals. Is this wrong? No, it is his choice and we can choose not to get worked up over it and let the boys settle it on the mat. But I do take issue with the fact that he has stated that he sends "his" rankings in to national rankings as if they were "official" rankings. While I appreciate at least someone for taking the initiative, his bias could taint a wrestler's future recruitment opportunity. Just a thought.

By the way Cokeley, Zack lost on January 31 at SMN to James Wauer from Washington, an unranked opponent.

I wish to correct the post which stated:

"By the way Cokeley, Zack lost on January 31 at SMN to James Wauer from Washington, an unranked opponent."

James Wauer is ranked #7 in the above poll. The other losses, by the way, for Zach Tanenbaum, were at 125 to Chaz Lawrence (2), 119-Tyler Stokes, and 119-James Wauer. All, including Zach, are ranked above and are in the elite group of Kansas wrestlers. FYI, Zach also beat Wauer earlier.

Tom Williams

Tom, I think he meant he is unranked in the KWCA rankings.

That unranked 5A wrestler is 26-2 with losses to Jeff Vesta and Zack Tanenbaum. Wauer beat Tanenbaum the following week.

119
1. Jake Gentzler - 10 - AC - 5A
2. Jeff Vesta - 12 - MH - 6A
3. Garrett Jones - 11 - ARK - 5A
4. Zac Sparr - 12 - RH - 4A
5. Nathan Furches - 12 - CL - 4A
6. Tyler Stokes - 12 - GE - 5A
7. James Wauer - 12 - WA - 5A
8. Zach Tanenbaum - 10 - BVN - 6A
9. Dondre Davis - 12 - WH - 6A
10. Dan Weigel - 12 - PL - 321A


James Wauer is ranked. He has some quality wins under his belt which means he is capable of knocking off anyone anytime but unfortunately he has some losses to mediorce wrestlers in his past seasons so it hurts his overall evaluation by the KWCA 5A Coach/ranker.

Just because he isn't ranked in the 5A rankings doesn't mean anything to me. The Chief's rankings are much more accurate and thought through.

I would much rather see the Chief's rankings published in Wrestling USA's rankings than some coach's effort. A coach should coach, not rank. End of story. Greg Buckbee is a great guy, a great coach, but he doesn't even aspire to be a good ranker. USA Wrestling wants someone to rank Kansas wrestlers for their publication. Since the KWCA has not empowered an unbiased, noncoach ranker then Eric is the ONLY option Kansans have. It WILL not hurt anyone's chances of being recruited. Furthermore, if you want to see ranking drama just go out to the High School section of themat.com. The national rankings are so full of forced assumptions. These publications use summer tournaments, coach opinions, top tournament finishes (unfortunately Kansans are NOT permitted to compete in any of the big three tournaments frequently cited by National rankers so Kansan's recruiting opportunities and publicity are DAMAGED by not being allowed to compete there), furthermore they basically consider our state tournaments on par with a regional in other states because of the small population base and the fact we crown four state champions. So... someone HAS TO HAVE AN OPINION or we get NO publicity.

I have just thoroughly reviewed all of the rankings and I detect NO BIASED rankings, ANYWHERE!

Chief!!!! What about my question... 4A or 5A???

Once again...

Every living person has a bias whether it's their world view or their opinion of a wrestler's ability. These rankings reflect the information that I receive. In the absence of that information, I rank the wrestlers based on the data that I personally find through my own research. As is usually the case, most cries of bias come from those that have not done the research. To be clear, if anyone has criteria that would erase a perceived bias, please state that criteria on this board or PM me with the info. Just claiming bias without any proof cannot be taken seriously.

i have a question chief. why is dondre ranked in all-class when Diamond pinned him at City-League??

I didn't see that Cody. Thanks for the info. Have you wrestled Davis or Wilson this year?

I haven't wrestled Davis this year but i've wrestled Wilson twice this year,
beating him 9-3, and 9-2.

Here are the top three ranked kids form 321A at 285:
1. Jered Rice-Phillipsburg-11
2. Luke Keener-Hoisington-12
3. Ross Addison-Cimarron-12

In the Chief's rankings Addison is 7th and Rice is 8th. My question is why? Rice beat Addison at regionals last year, finished ahead of him at state placing 2nd to Addison's 4th, and Addison has lost three times (losses are to Dillon Salmans of Hoxie, Luke Keener of Hosington, and Austin Edwards of Great Bend by inj. def). Rice’s only loss is to Keener at the beginning of the season and Rice has since beaten him twice.

Perfect RB. State your problem and prove it with results.

Nice job.

**Sure hope you didn't sit on that info too long!

2008-09 All-Class Ranking:

TEAMS - All-Class:

1. Goddard - 6A
2. Emporia - 5A
3. Colby - 4A
4. Clay Center - 4A
5. Wichita Heights - 6A
6. Derby - 6A
7. Bishop Carroll - 5A
8. Liberal - 5A
9. Norton - 321A
10. Abilene - 4A


103
1. Roger Windham - 12 - DB - 6A
2. Aaron Seybold - 9 - PT - 5A
3. Colby Watters - 9 - ARK - 5A
4. Bo Pursel - 9 - LS - 5A
5. Konner Kriss - 9 - COL - 4A
6. Luke Cole - 12 - AB - 4A
7. Austin Hood - 9 - LOU - 4A
8. Dylan Schumacher - 9 - TMP - 321A
9. Hunter Stalford - 9 - CV - 4A
10. Alex Wolf - 9 - SV - 4A


112
1. Kenneth Ornelas - 12 - CH - 4A
2. Taylor Moeder - 10 - SJA - 4A
3. Alan Callahan - 12 - BAL - 4A
4. Dalton Miller - 11 - WC - 6A
5. Uylesses DeShazer - 9 - WH
6. Isaac Ruiz - 11 - JC - 6A
7. Nathan Reed - 11 - CB - 4A
8. Trevor Boyer - 11 - MV - 5A
9. Francisco Antillon - 11 - SC - 4A
10. Adrian Salas - 11 - LB - 5A


119
1. Jake Gentzler - 10 - AC - 5A
2. Jeff Vesta - 12 - MH - 6A
3. Garrett Jones - 11 - ARK - 5A
4. Zac Sparr - 12 - RH - 4A
5. Nathan Furches - 12 - CL - 4A
6. James Wauer - 12 - WA - 5A
7. Zach Tanenbaum - 10 - BVN - 6A
8. Brett LaMar - 11 - SL - 321A
9. Blaine Smith - 11 - SS - 5A
10. Dan Weigel - 12 - PL - 321A


125
1. Chase Nitcher - 11 - VC - 5A
2. Daniel DeShazer - 10 - WH - 6A
3. Chaz Lawrence - 12 - OS - 6A
4. Derek Weller - 11 - PI - 4A
5. Symon Seaton - 11 - BL - 4A
6. Aaron Patton - 12 - WEL - 321A
7. Devin Frye - 12 - EU - 321A
8. Alex Bontz - 9 - WI - 4A
9. Jace Campbell - 11 - OA - 321A


130
1. Ryne Cokeley - 10 - SJA - 4A
2. Trent Cox - 12 - MZ - 6A
3. Colt Rogers - 11 - SC - 321A
4. Rylan Dalke - 12 - NT - 5A
5. Spencer Blew - 10 - LS - 5A
6. Justin Rose - 12 - EMP - 5A
7. Dylan Penka - 10 - BC - 5A
8. Kash Biddle - 11 - ARK - 5A
9. Trey Houlden - 10 - GD - 6A
10. Bradley Little - 10 - DB - 6A


135
1. C.J. Napier - 12 - CO - 4A
2. Kendric Maple - 12 - WH - 6A
3. Tyler Anderson - 11 - CC - 4A
4. Bryce Hood - 11 - LOU - 4A
5. Danny Floyd - 11 - OS - 321A
6. Sal Tovar - 12 - EMP - 5A
7. Kaenon Keiswetter - 11 - NT - 321A
8. Cade Hewitt - 12 - BE - 321A
9. Shae Hinman - 11 - AC - 5A
10. Ricky Creek - 12 - MRV - 321A


140
1. Joey Dozier - 11 - GC - 6A
2. Parker Madl - 11 - BV - 6A
3. Dustin Zahorsky - 12 - SL - 321A
4. Cade Blair - 11 - VC - 5A
5. Cameron Jesseph - 12 - CH - 4A
6. Tavo Dikin - 12 - EMP - 5A
7. Cody Shavlik - 11 - DB - 6A
8. Jesse Gantz - 12 - ST - 321A
9. Codie Bontz - 11 - WI - 4A
10. Linwood Peoples - 12 - BVNW - 6A


145
1. Mitchell Means - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Colby Crank - 12 - HUT - 5A
3. Trevor Rempe - 12 - SC - 321A
4. Cas Spangler - 12 - BE - 321A
5. Cole Zoglman - 12 - GP - 321A
6. Zane Wickham - 12 - HAY - 5A
7. Tyler Davis - 11 - MCP - 5A
8. Jake Walker - 11 - STA - 5A
9. Kyle McGoldrick - 11 - VC - 5A
10. Jake Hattabaugh - 10 - AN - 4A


152
1. Chris Watson - 12 - AC - 5A
2. Ryan Houlden - 12 - GD - 6A
3. Jordan Brown - 12 - PT - 5A
4. Derek Newell - 12 - UL - 4A
5. Nathan Sommer - 12 - PV - 4A
6. Marshall McCall - 12 - SC - 321A
7. Reece Wright-Conklin - 9 - LAW - 6A
8. Blake Fulbright - 12 - MZ - 6A
9. Tyler Sutherland - 12 - LB - 5A
10. Todd Curtis - 11 - GE - 5A


160
1. Tyler Caldwell - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Kyle Detmer - 12 - BC - 5A
3. Benny Armstrong - 11 - AN - 4A
4. Travis Rempe - 12 - SC - 321A
5. Ryan Wuthnow - 11 - AB - 4A
6. Corey Engstrom - 12 - HOI - 321A
7. Tyler Baughman - 10 - LS - 5A
8. John Hambleton - 11 - LC - 4A
9. Jess Lemon - 12 - CH - 4A
10. Ethan Mumaw - 10 - JW - 4A


171
1. Breck Arnberger - 12 - CB - 4A
2. Chase Nelson - 12 - WH - 6A
3. Alex Feldkamp - 12 - DB - 6A
4. Ryan Taylor - 12 - GL - 321A
5. Tyler Hasenbank - 12 - CON - 4A
6. Noel Richardson - 12 - CH - 4A
7. Jake Price - 12 - CV - 4A
8. Jonathan Truman - 11 - KMC - 5A
9. Chaston Hoeme - 12 - SC - 4A
10. Cole Geisen - 12 - HOL - 4A


189
1. Boaz Beard - 12 - GD - 6A
2. Mark Kolmer - 11 - EMP - 5A
3. Joel Marrs - 12 - CC - 4A
4. Darnell Bortz - 12 - PRT - 4A
5. Nate Davis - 12 - LB - 5A
6. Aron Elsen - 12 - GB - 5A
7. Luke Hirschler - 12 - BC - 5A
8. Andrew Wahlmeier - 12 - RC - 321A
9. Fernando Martinez - 12 - GL - 321A
10. Brandon Reif - 12 - WC - 6A


215
1. Tanner Kriss - CB - 4A
2. Kyle Caylor - 11 - WNW - 6A
3. Steven Kyler - 12 - EL - 321A
4. Jacob Nowak - 12 - STA - 5A
5. Jake Cole - 12 - BC - 5A
6. Howard Johnson - 12 - GB - 5A
7. Josh Hicks - 11 - GD - 6A
8. Taylor Wuthnow - 12 - AB - 4A
9. Kendall Pierce - 12 - CIR - 4A
10. Michael Patenaude - 12 - CC - 4A


285
1. B.J. Finney - 11 - AN - 4A
2. Lucas Vincent - 11 - ON - 6A
3. Trey Page - 11 - WNW - 6A
4. Lorenzo Serna - 11 - EMP - 5A
5. Kyle Westmoreland - 12 - DB - 6A
6. Tony Marquez - 12 - BC - 5A
7. J.J. Rice - 11 - PH - 321A
8. Dillon Salmans - 10 - HOX - 321A
9. Luke Keener - 12 - HOI - 321A
10t. Ricky Gomez - 12 - LB - 5A
10t. Tank Burns - 11 - COL - 4A


**THESE RANKINGS ARE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH THE KWCA RANKINGS**

And boom goes the dynamite.