I am IN FAVOR for several reasons of expanding the daily match limit to six. I do see some situations that would have to be worked around, especially as it relates to competition with out-of-state schools that would adhere to the five match rule.

But, comparing wrestling to football (or any other sport) is a "straw man" argument. Football is a series of 15 to 20 second bursts of activity followed by 20-30 seconds of relative inactivity. Wrestling is, by far, more physically intense.

To take the offered analogy one step further, high school basketball games last 32 minutes, so should the total daily wrestling time be reduced to match that?

No Stalling Penalties

Don't some basketball tournaments require a team to play two games in one day? That would be 64 minutes.

Honestly, there is NO legitmate arguement against even 7 matches per day. Every summer kids wrestle up to nine matches in one day in Fargo, against the toughest competition in the US. This rule change is an absolute no brainer from an economic standpoint so it should be embraced by all those who are facing budget cuts in the coming year and beyond.

No high school varsity tournaments of which I am familiar require two games per day, though there are some JH and JV tournaments which do. Again, comparing the physical rigors of BB and wrestling is an apples and oranges argument--just as comparing FB & wrestling.

You are preaching to the choir on this one, Will. I think nine is too many; while I think six would capture most of our situations, I could be pursuaded to consider seven. Please remember not all who wrestle in high school are Fargo-caliber athletes and our kids do this multiple weekends.

Again, balance and perspective.

Mann

More stalling calls.

Change out of bounds rules.

Make an exception to the 5 match limit for 16-man brackets.

Universalize junior high seasons across the state, that way everyone is doing the same thing at the same time. Also, have split season dates in JH so kids can both wrestle and play basketball. (this really only applies to smaller schools)

Go back to the old style of wrestling. I went to 321A regionals and state, and saw very few kids with "heavy hands" and basically just punishing their opponents. From the sounds of it I would have been ejected for my style of wrestling, and I haven't been out of the sport that long. Get tough or go home.

Point of emphasis: post match actions. I saw several kids throwing fits, barely shaking hands, etc. Unacceptable, though this may be more of a coaches domain, KSHSAA could take actions to crack down on some of this.

What about increasing the number of matches in Jr. High. It always seemed that about the time a new wrestler was starting to pick up the sport the season would end. Just a thought..

Mann,

I know that the KWCA is in favor and has this change as number one on their topic (thus the choir situation) but I am trying to help explain how to justify it to a group of non-wrestlers. How many on the Executive Board of KSHSAA are wrestling advocates? They all understand football and basketball so while it may not be apples to apples for you and me it might be a great way to justify it to a group of nonwrestlers. I do believe that BB is much closer to wrestling than FB from a cardio perspective. And yes, I only know of non varsity events where they play more than one game a day but I believe that would PERMIT varsity to do so.

I personally advocate 7 matches, not 9, but I feel that pointing out that the number that are wrestled at Fargo is pertinent to the argument. While I agree that the large majority of our wrestlers are not the caliber that wrestle that many matches in Fargo, I do believe it is an APPLES TO APPLES comparison as neither are their opponents in Kansas. On top of that, our wrestlers are attending practice five days a week and wrestling every week and weekend during HS season while the Fargo competitors gear up for one event so it could be said they are NOT in the phycical condition that our athletes should be during the season. Just trying to bolster the arguement to get it done. It is sorely needed just as moving the 2 lb allowance to immediately after the Christmas break.

The apples to oranges of which I refer is the comparison of the physical rigors required of wrestling to the physical rigors of football and/or basketball. The comparison of Fargo to "regular" high school wrestling is more a comparison of apple types, such as "Delicious" to "Jonathan!"

Basketball is PERMITTED to play two games in a day, but at the varsity level it has been utilized almost exclusively as a "LAST RESORT" when necessary to finish a tournament due to postponements. It is not, as is being discussed with wrestling, a regularly scheduled and expected occurrence.

Very briefly, my concerns with eight/nine matches in a day are:

#1 eight/nine matches with 45 minutes rest means that a one-day tournament is going to be a very large tournament and a very, very long day for competitors, fans and coaches.

#2 eight/nine matches for most average high school athletes is more than can be handled at a quality level--even if the quality, as a relative matter, is not high.

#3 Our kids do practice every day and most should be in good condition; but (a) how many times do we see kids "gas" in the third period--even at State? (b) Kids get sick during the season and try to wrestle through it. (c) We wrestle more competitions during the week than just on weekends. (d) Kids have other things that require their time during the season: academics and some even try to take part in other school organizations and activities.

I am in favor of six matches and could be pursuaded to consider a seventh if necessary to wrestle off for a medal. This would allow for the utilaztion of 24 man brackets for a Saturday. Most of us realize that for most of us to fill a 16 man bracket requires 20+ teams and there will, therefore, be those weights more than 16 competitors--which if the first round match is lost but wrestles back through a FULL consolation bracket would require a seventh match for third.

But consider this: Many of us compete with out-of-state schools who are not as "forward thinking" as is Kansas and DO follow NFS rules; these schools will probably not wrestle the sixth or seventh match even if legal in Kansas and when we go out-of-state, the sixth and seventh matches would not be an option. So, the question becomes, just how far out of compliance can we be before we are seen as being a "renegade" state thereby, possibly, reducing our opportunity to compete with out-of-state opponents?

Finally, adding matches to the day cannot be "sold" as a way to save money/cut costs as there is no accompanying decrease in competition dates. Allowing more matches in a day WILL allow more matches in a season under the current point rules, BUT it does not reduce the number of competitions allowed and therefore, is not a money saver as there is no reduction in travel, utilities, referees, table and gate workers, etc.

The executive board is supportive of those rules changes which are evidenced to have wide support and of which they can be convinced by those they consider to be knowledgeable are good for kids and Kansas. Getting too far out of compliance with NF rules (especially when ALL other KSHSAA sports are in)is a MAJOR concern. Just what is it that makes us in Kansas think we are so much smarter than the other 40+ states who wrestle and follow the NF rules?

Greg Mann
Norton

Greg,

If you can make a two day event into a one day event you will not have lodging costs. If you make Kansas events more attractive then less teams will leave Kansas, more savings. I DO NOT want to be on record as stating I want 8 or 9, I believe 7 is fine. We are in agreement, sort of.

Out of state teams will not come to our one day events if they are not willing to violate the National Federation rule. I don't think that many are now... Yes, it will increase matches and that is a GOOD thing! The current point system really doesn't work, another topic. We have already broken the NF weigh in rule so be it. We are already renegades. Someone has to lead the change. Perhaps our success will entice others to follow or for the NF to change.

Most of the out-of-state events we go to are two-day events or are set up to comply where there are not forfeits, according to the results data I quickly reviewed.

How do we convince them Greg? What can the parents do to help push change through your system? We just need a little guidance.

Thanks
Will

Just wondering what everyone else would think about these two ideas.

1. Did we need the new starting sequence or could a new rule (and a thicker rules book) been avoided by placing more emphasis on the delayed whistle?

2. Why do we stop counting back points and giving pins when a wrestlers shoulders are out of bounds but one wrestler is still clearly in bounds? I have always thought the rules of wrestling were to create action.

Just curious what you think.

Myron Ellegood

Will,

Curious; you stated- -

How do the events do this (NOT talking about the two-day events) and still comply with the five match rule?

I agree that a fall/back points should be possible when the shoulder(s) of the defensive wrestler is out of bounds but the supporting points of the offensive wrestler are in-bounds. Takedowns are awarded when the offensive wrestler is in bounds and the defensive wrestler is out.

Starting sequence makes no difference if proper start procedure is not enforced. It has been a personal pet peeve of mine for a long time that the top man is allowed push, lay, press, etc. the bottom man as he is getting on and much of the time is not covering the belly button or at a full stop before the whistle is blown. I guess what I am saying is that I believe that better enforcement of current starting position rules, whatever they may be, is needed before another change in the rules.

Greg Mann
Norton

For one day tournaments, 16 man or less brackets are used with a max of 12 wrestlers in a 16 man bracket. Two byes on each side eliminate the need for a 6th match.

The same could be accomplished with 8 man brackets with pig tails, and the guarantee of additional, non scoring, matches for the first round losers. In order for the 12 men in a 16 man bracket to work without the need for a sixth match, you must be 100% sure there will be no more than 12 wrestlers in each weight; and I know of no way to guarantee this.

Unless you only invite 12 teams which means that a majority of the brackets will have less than 12 wrestlers. It hurts the match count for the winners if you get a bye. For example this year at the Derby tournament, a two day event, Ryne only got three matches. 18 teams, only 14 130lbers and they gave the 1 & 2 seeds the byes. I hate it when they do that! Burned up four competition points for three matches, not a good ROI!

For 12 wrestlers with the new format you could have two six man pools and four man line brackets to place. Everyone would get seven matches. An awesome day for all!

National Federation of State High School Association, Wrestling Rules Committee will meet April 1-4 in Indianapolis,Indiana. I attended the NWCA High School Scholastic meeting last Saturday in St. Louis, Missouri. I had the opportunity to sit with Tom McCann of Kearney, Nebraska, and Ethan Hauck of Lee Summitt, Mo. We heard Bob Colgate, President of the National Federation speak about the rule changes for 2009-2010 and 2010-2011. The national office has accepted 37 rule recommendations and 10 editorial changes to consider and possibly change. The #1 possible change is the 14 weight class for prep wrestling. If the National Office uses the data that has been compilied from selected states. We may see some weight classes change. Coach Chenowith of Perry, Oklahoma came in with a lot of documented data. If the committee does decide to recommend weight class change. All of the States that have prep wrestling will be given a year to look at the possible weight class changes. The weight class system will not change until the following year. Now Mr. Colgate mentioned there are states that are not in compliance.These state assocation will have to decide what is best for their high schools. Side note their are 17 states not in compliance with the national office concerning weight control plan. The meeting was very informative and I know many of us look forward to the results of such meeting in two weeks. I was told that if we want to see what the national committee was working on we could contact our local state association and they should have a copy for member schools to view.I know the three of us state reps wanted to see what the national committe would be working on. The NCAA D1 tournament was exciting and next year we are in Omaha, Nebraska. If you are ever in St. Louis, Missouri (2012) next NCAA meet. Stop at Johnny's Brady Lamar and Tyler Gonzales took the old coach for a burger and beer. Wow great place. Looking forward to this weekend Senior Classic and USAW Kansas Kids State. RMG

I heard they have your picture up on the wall as a missing person. Glad to see that you have been rounded up.

I'd like to see a couple weight classes added between 215 and 285, say 235 & 255.

There are some rule changes I'd like to see made that weren't discussed and some that were.

1. The number of matches should be increased to 7 as long as the rest periods between matches are provided. I can remember the old days when spring freestyle tournaments were pools with bad marks not brackets. I had kids wrestle 7 matches before the round-robin.

2. Instead of a weight limit on Hwt., I'd like to see a maximum body fat percentage mandated. If a kid is 300 pounds and under 15 percent body fat let him wrestle. This would let more football players compete in wrestling, and the football coaches shouldn't complain since you aren't making them cut weight.

3. Stalling, I have for a long time wanted a rule implemented that no points would be awarded by the official. Instead the other wrestler would be given his choice of positions. This would give referees incentive to call stalling more rigorously throughout the entire match, because they know they wouldn't determine the outcome of the match.

4. Weight management needs to be revisited. The amount of weight that a wrestler can lose per day is way too low. If a kid wrestles a dual on Wednesday at 130, he can't cut to 125 for a tournament on Friday, and most coaches don't want them cutting down to weight twice in that short period of time.

5. I'd like to weight classes added to freshman and JV competition. There are still kids who weigh in the 80s and 90s until their junior year. It isn't a bad thing that they don't make the varsity lineup until they are juniors, which is usually the case for many middle and upperweights. However, they don't get a chance to wrestle in competition against kids of the same size.

6. Some junior high kids are much more physically advanced than others are at the same age. The only way these kids can get a good workout is against high school kids. We know they workout during the fall, spring, and summer against high school kids, but aren't allowed to in the winter. Waiver forms signed by the parents would probably suffice to eliminate the liability issues.