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Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: smokeycabin] #165796 03/21/10 12:28 PM
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Dean Welsh Offline
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Ugh. If this silly new rules past, I guess state finals in HS gyms again . . .


D. Dean Welsh, Junction City
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Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: smokeycabin] #165797 03/21/10 12:29 PM
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Here is a thread with some thoughts by fans of various sports on this subject.....

http://forums.cjonline.com/index.php/topic,43587.msg1100700.html#new


Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: sportsfan02] #165802 03/21/10 12:51 PM
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sorry but i blame all you 4a/321a fans that always complain about how much tougher you have it. many of you who are now upset have complained the loudest about 5a/6a having it easier. now you did it, it will be easy for all.

QUIT YOUR *(*&^%% COMPLAINING. SEE THE DAMAGE IT CAN DO!!!!

LET'S ALL GET ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS AND STOP IT, GET AN OPPOSING PROPOSAL.

COKELEY YOU CAN SPEARHEAD IT, BUT SERIOUSLY IF YOU EVER COMPLAIN ABOUT 5A/6A HAVING IT EASY AGAIN, YOU KNOW I CAN FIND YOU, HAHA.

wow first we can't get our kid into the school district we wanted, now we wouldn't leave for anything, ANYTHING. well now i found SOMETHING. WOW.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: HEADUP] #165805 03/21/10 12:58 PM
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My wife said: "That is like going back to kindergarten - where everybody gets a ribbon."

Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: Dean Welsh] #165806 03/21/10 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: dwelsh
Ugh. If this silly new rules past, I guess state finals in HS gyms again . . .


I hear you, and I feel your pain. The two years I made State in high school I wrestled at Russell and Abilene. I watched my older brother wrestle high school State at Hays in the coliseum. Having watched my son wrestle at the Expo Center and the Bicentennial Center, I would hope that he gets to wrestle high school State, should he get the opportunity, somewhere other than a high school gymnasium.


Lee Girard
Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: HEADUP] #165807 03/21/10 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: HEADUP
sorry but i blame all you 4a/321a fans that always complain about how much tougher you have it. many of you who are now upset have complained the loudest about 5a/6a having it easier. now you did it, it will be easy for all.

For the most part, I've never seen that as complaining but rather bragging on the part of the 4A fans. As well as, just poking fun at the 5A/6A folks, but you should be able to do both at the same time I think!


Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: HEADUP] #165808 03/21/10 01:10 PM
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If this was actually approved what would be private schools incentive to even participate under the KSHSAA? I really do not know what it would be. Why subject the private schools to rules of an organization that would be forcing you to compete in a diluted competitive situation? It would seem to me there would be no reason for connection to the KSHSAA. It would be much like the grade school and middle school situation that we currently have in sports. For the Catholic private schools we have CYO competition that is completely separate from the public middle school competitions. I would think that is the same situation that would evolve.

I don't see the purpose of it in Kansas. It is too small of a state and the private schools have really not been that dominant in most sports. Aquinas has been pretty dominant in soccer for both boys and girls but really no more than SM Northwest has been in cross country or SM East in swimming or Hutchinson and Blue Valley in football. Bishop Carroll has been a dominant wrestling team but no more than Goddard.

Will Cokeley, one thing that you might like in such a new system would be if the private schools dropped out of the KSHSAA then we would no longer be subject to KSHSAA's restrictions.


Vince Nowak
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Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: sportsfan02] #165809 03/21/10 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Originally Posted By: HEADUP
sorry but i blame all you 4a/321a fans that always complain about how much tougher you have it. many of you who are now upset have complained the loudest about 5a/6a having it easier. now you did it, it will be easy for all.

For the most part, I've never seen that as complaining but rather bragging on the part of the 4A fans. As well as, just poking fun at the 5A/6A folks, but you should be able to do both at the same time I think!


my point is it's all in how it's perceived, i have never taken offense. and have also agreed that in 4a a title is tougher to achieve, but some make it sound like, 5a and 6a have cakewalks in all sports not just wrestling.

there's a lesson to be learned here no matter how you or i perceive it.

some people like kindergarten, some people feel they are entitled, some people sit on their cans and live off of the working people, some people want everyone to be happy, some people don't like to work for anything, some people want everything handed to them. SOME PEOPLE PERCIEVE BRAGGING, LIKE COMPLAINING AND FEEL SORRY FOR ALL THOSE POOR KIDS WHO HAVE IT SOOOOOO TOUGH AND WANT EVERYONE TO BE TREATED FAIRLY. SOME PEOPLE THINK LIFE SHOULD BE FAIR, NOW SOME PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO MAKE IT THAT WAY.

HOPE YOU'RE HAPPY. ALL IT TAKES IS A FEW MIS-INTERPRETED STATEMENTS TO PLANT A SEED/ IDEA, THEN SOMEBODY GOES AND DUMPS WATER ON IT, NOW WE HAVE A TREE GROWING.

SON GO GET MY CHAINSAW, OR WE'RE MOVING TO MISSOURI.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: HEADUP] #165810 03/21/10 01:27 PM
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Doesn't Missouri use a multiplier factor for private schools to determine classification?


Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: sportsfan02] #165814 03/21/10 02:57 PM
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Bad plan altogether, but you can't deny the success of the private schools in all sports, not just wrestling. There has been a disproportionate amount of championships earned by the private schools. Defend it the way you want to Will, but you can't deny it, private schools have advantages that public schools do not. I am sure that you would say not receiving taxes is a disadvantage, and some would say having boundary lines is a disadvantage for public schools. Are these the only two proposals being considered?


"If it is to be, it is up to me!"
Some background info [Re: sportsfan02] #165816 03/21/10 03:06 PM
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For purposes of clarification, it is NOT KSHSAA staff who are recommending these changes; they have been proposed by member schools; specifically those in the Frontier and NCK Leagues.

For further reading and consideration a quick google search yielded these articles; some are dated but still provide good background on the issue. It is apparent that several state athletic associations "bump" private school enrollment for classification purposes. The first one listed is an excellent analysis of how state activity associations all across the U.S. handle public/private schools

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6936/is_4_10/ai_n28543521/

http://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/content/shared/oh/fbnation/stories/1104fbmultiplier.html

http://www.accforums.com/articles/editorials/multiplier-private-schools-kryptonite/

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1348646

"The means of placing private schools within these classifications have become a key issue in Arkansas. Prior to 2002, only single-gender schools would have its enrollment altered, in this case by doubling the reported enrollment. in 2002, the enrollments reported by private schools was multiplied by 1.35. In 2006, that multiplier was increased to 1.75. Starting in 2008, the multiplier wil be dropped altogether, and each private school will be placed one classification above where the enrollment would otherwise place the school." Wikipedia


Greg Mann
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Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: GregMann] #165818 03/21/10 03:14 PM
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a

Last edited by nastyway; 03/21/10 04:53 PM.

the nasty way is the best way
A legal review [Re: nastyway] #165820 03/21/10 03:23 PM
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Quote:

Timothy Liam Epstein, Chair of SmithAmundsen's Sports Law Practice Group, will publish his latest law review article with the University of Texas (UT-Austin). "Prep Plus: Evaluating the Motivations for and Effects of Enrollment Multipliers and other Measures in High School Sports" will appear in the Spring issue of the Texas Review of Entertainment and Sports Law.

The competitive balance between public and private high school sports teams is a focus of debate for many athletic associations in the United States. The question that often arises is: “Is it fair for private schools, with their ability to enroll student-athletes outside of their geographic boundaries, to take home more than their proportionate share of state championships?” This article examines state high school athletic associations’ pursuit of creating a level playing field by implementing controversial enrollment multipliers for playoff classification. Through a multi-state case study, this article examines the use of multipliers and similar measures and the controversy generated by the same, as multipliers may not be a solution to allegations of “unfair competition,” and, further, may not pass legal muster. This article provides analysis from a legal standpoint for the benefit of sports administrators, coaches, athletes, and sports law practitioners on a widely-used, yet controversial attempt to achieve competitive balance in high school sports.



http://www.salawus.com/PUBLICATIONS/PUBS/Page382/
click on link to find full article.


Greg Mann
Manhattan, KS
Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: sportsfan02] #165825 03/21/10 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted By: sportsfan02
Doesn't Missouri use a multiplier factor for private schools to determine classification?


not positive about it, but i think they do. i know arkansas does, as well as oklahoma.


"with attitude, will, and some spirit"
Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: HEADUP] #165831 03/21/10 04:25 PM
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Quote:
The states of Alabama, Arkansas, and Missouri have a 1.35 multiplier; Arkansas recently raised its multiplier from 1.35 to 1.75; Georgia has a 1.5 multiplier which it has repealed; Illinois has a 1.65 multiplier; Tennessee recently adopted a 1.8 multiplier;

and Texas has a de facto multiplier. Wisconsin is looking at multiplier options beyond the familiar public-private school divide.

Arizona, Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and South Carolina have explored a multiplier, but found limited support for it. Indiana and Nebraska have rejected a multiplier by votes of the athletic association board and by members of the athletic association respectively.

Kentucky and Louisiana pursued segregation of private schools and New York has taken a unique approach that defies an easy explanation.



Quote:
OSSAA tables public/private school debate
By
Rick Couri, KRMG Sports director
@ June 10, 2009 5:49 AM Permalink | TrackBacks (0)
Non-public high schools in Oklahoma won't be forced to move into a higher classification for the next school year, after a motion seeking the change was voted down Tuesday by the Oklahoma Secondary School Activities Association's board of directors.

The board decided to keep the current system in place while appointing a committee to study how schools should be classified.

The committee would have about two months to develop a plan that could be presented to OSSAA members during October meetings. After that, the board could take the committee's plan and send it to a vote of the OSSAA membership.

"They do have an understanding that this issue is not going to go away," said Jim Beckham, the superintendent at Blanchard and one of the top proponents of the measure rejected by the board. "They have to do something at some point."

In recent years, as non-public schools have enjoyed more success in OSSAA-sponsored activities most notably in football and basketball resentment from public-school administrators and patrons has built because of suspicions the non-public schools recruited students for athletic purposes, which would be a violation of OSSAA rules.

The non-public schools have denied such recruiting and have said they need to draw from wider geographic areas than public schools to remain viable. They have also denied charges of deliberately limiting their enrollment to remain in a lower classification and thus be more competitive.

"That would be financial suicide," said Ralph Bullard, the school ambassador for Christian Heritage Academy in Del City. "It's a very hard business. We don't determine our school size based on athletics."

The OSSAA classifies schools based on their average daily membership or ADM. The rejected proposal called for the ADM of non-public schools to be determined by using the school's actual ADM and adding 50 percent of the ADM of the public school in the district in which the private school is located. A school could not have been moved up more than two classes.

The board voted not to send that proposal developed by representatives from Bridge Creek, Blanchard, Holdenville and Sulphur schools to OSSAA members for a vote.

Nineteen of the state's non-public high schools are private, while two others Sequoyah in Tahlequah and Riverside in Anadarko are federally funded government Indian service schools.



Greg Mann
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Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: Brent Lane] #165833 03/21/10 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted By: Brent Lane
Bad plan altogether, but you can't deny the success of the private schools in all sports, not just wrestling. There has been a disproportionate amount of championships earned by the private schools. Defend it the way you want to Will, but you can't deny it, private schools have advantages that public schools do not. I am sure that you would say not receiving taxes is a disadvantage, and some would say having boundary lines is a disadvantage for public schools. Are these the only two proposals being considered?


There have been a lot of public schools that have been dominant sports programs. I remember the days when Wyandotte used to be dominant in basketball, SM North and Lawrence in football. I believe Manhattan also used to have a dominant football program. Currently what a about the disapportionate amount of State Championships that SM Northwest has in boys and girls cross country, SM East in swimming, and Hutchinson and Blue Valley in football, and Goddard in wrestling? What accounts for their level of continued success?


Vince Nowak
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Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: Husker Fan] #165834 03/21/10 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Husker Fan
Originally Posted By: Brent Lane
Bad plan altogether, but you can't deny the success of the private schools in all sports, not just wrestling. There has been a disproportionate amount of championships earned by the private schools. Defend it the way you want to Will, but you can't deny it, private schools have advantages that public schools do not. I am sure that you would say not receiving taxes is a disadvantage, and some would say having boundary lines is a disadvantage for public schools. Are these the only two proposals being considered?


There have been a lot of public schools that have been dominant sports programs. I remember the days when Wyandotte used to be dominant in basketball, SM North and Lawrence in football. I believe Manhattan also used to have a dominant football program. Currently what a about the disapportionate amount of State Championships that SM Northwest has in boys and girls cross country, SM East in swimming, and Hutchinson and Blue Valley in football, and Goddard in wrestling? What accounts for their level of continued success?


Probably good coaching and good athletes.

Last edited by Brent Lane; 03/21/10 04:39 PM.

"If it is to be, it is up to me!"
Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: Brent Lane] #165835 03/21/10 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted By: Brent Lane
Originally Posted By: Husker Fan
Originally Posted By: Brent Lane
Bad plan altogether, but you can't deny the success of the private schools in all sports, not just wrestling. There has been a disproportionate amount of championships earned by the private schools. Defend it the way you want to Will, but you can't deny it, private schools have advantages that public schools do not. I am sure that you would say not receiving taxes is a disadvantage, and some would say having boundary lines is a disadvantage for public schools. Are these the only two proposals being considered?

There have been a lot of public schools that have been dominant sports programs. I remember the days when Wyandotte used to be dominant in basketball, SM North and Lawrence in football. I believe Manhattan also used to have a dominant football program. Currently what a about the disapportionate amount of State Championships that SM Northwest has in boys and girls cross country, SM East in swimming, and Hutchinson and Blue Valley in football, and Goddard in wrestling? What accounts for their level of continued success?


Probably good coaching and good athletes.


Precisely. And I think that good coaching is an especially important and maybe the most important part of it. After all what could it be about the SM Northwest area as far as athletic talent goes that produces all those great cross country teams over other areas of the state with 6A schools? I think it has a lot more to do with Coach Van Rose than the cross country athletic talent in the SM Northwest area.


Vince Nowak
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Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: Brent Lane] #165836 03/21/10 04:55 PM
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They should implement a negative multiplier for schools districts not providing a middle school and/or youth program or organization. Each HS should have a youth program. If they do not they are not elgible to compete in the State tournament series.

2 Classes - 1A = schools that have a youth program in place (5 years or more) 2A = schools that do not have a youth program in place (less than 5 years). Elgible to move into 1A in the 6th year of kids program.

Re: Would somebody please get Cokeley a sedative [Re: smokeycabin] #165837 03/21/10 05:00 PM
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http://www.kshsaa.org/BODAgendaAP.pdf

KSHSAA BODA Agenda April 23-24, 2010 Meeting

Plans to change classification 1A, 2A, 3A, 4A1, 4A2, 5A, 6A, 7A, 8A, 9A 10A 11A 12A, etc.

Go to to this link if you disagree or agree and voice your opinion.

http://www.kshsaa.org/BODAgendaAP.pdf

I DISAGREE STRONGLY!


Last edited by smokeycabin; 03/21/10 05:00 PM.
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