Hey Folks
Sorry I took a little break from the thread. As I stated I would be willing to raise the white flag if you could address what your plans were on some of the issues.
Here is what I heard...

One Not really a problem in D2 and if the good kids want to come to us we will let them sooo.
Two Hey good idea. I will make a phone call. You should too.
Three Not my problem. I have heard about this for a few years and people talked to me about it this year and I agree that if it effects YOU then maybe YOU should do something.
Four Chirp Chirp Chirp that's the crickets I'm hearing.

All four of these are valid issues inside if D2 and all of KS. If you disagree then say so.
You were elected to Rep D2 and the state on issues weather they directly effect YOU or not.
I hope someone steps up and does something.
If it isn't a series that will resolve this then fine. But if you are going to shoot down my idea then I would hope you have one of your own.
I'm going to continue to move fwd with this series idea. Maybe it will happen or maybe not but at least I can try to do something.

I don't think anyone said that you can't be a successful folkstyle wrestler without wrestling freestyle. There are many kids who have won multiple state titles in folkstyle and never wrestled freestyle but wrestling freestyle will help you improve in folkstyle and that is all anybody on here has said.

So in essence, you are saying 'do something, even if it's wrong'?

How can you say its wrong if no one has tried it.
The biggest wrong is no one doing anything.
I would of rather tried and failed then not to of tried at all.
And what's even worst is those people who just sit back and do NOTHING and then talk down to people who actually tired.
To me that's a COWARD.

Lance Tracy

Well first you would have to be naive enough to think, that there aren't people working everyday to make Kansas wrestling better. Just because you do not see or know it, does not mean it isn't going on! Even if we assume, as you do, that little to nothing is being done currently to better Kansas wrestling, does that mean we have to accept any hair-brained idea that comes along?

i'm not sure if it's wrong or not, a few think it would be wrong, a few more think it's the right thing to do. i guess the point is if it's not for you, don't do it (fs/gr included).

i think the biggest problem i have seen is this.

people who are against the series have these things to offer as reasons why:
just another award
$$$$
kill the small tourneys
fs/gr is a better way to build

people for have offered these solutions:
no award/points/ small/nop medal
plan / communicate/ save the small guy
build competition
can't solve $$$ issue

people who are for fs/gr:
it's proven- do it
it will build ks wrestling
can't do anything about $$$

people with problems about fs/gr:
$$$$
lack of opportunity (practices/coaches)
overlaps into other seasons
is it proven?
the rewards are for those with time and $$$

fs/gr supporters solutions:
???????

we can't change the $$$. but how do we grow fs/gr acrossed the state? how do we grow competition?

BLT and others have tried to address every concern with a solution. yet i haven't seen many solutions to the problems with fs/gr other than just deal with it. then when i or blt say have a series, just deal with it. trowbridge calls me a coward, sportsfan calls the idea hair brained. wow.

come on, grow up. we are all passionate about this sports, tha't obvious. we all know that people work for this year 'round, and appreciate the job they do (even if the negativity comes out more). we have to focus on the issues and concerns and search for ways to improve.

personally i think fs/gr is great for wresters, to make them better. but question it's availability, to ALL OF KS KIDS. the time and money to travel is tough to find. the way it stands needs improvement, to show it's POTENTIAL to grow ks wrestling.

i think the series would be great, to grow competition amongst ks kids. but question the availability, to ALL OF KS KIDS. the time and money to travel is tough to find. the way it stands needs improvement, to show it's POTENTIAL to grow ks wrestling.

i see both sides, they are almost identical. now let's take the next step and move forward.

Sportsfan
I understand people are involved in this sport year round and are working to make it better.
But the four issues I asked are important ones and like Chad even said the weight class one gets swept by every year.
Does the weight class issue effect ME or MY CHILD. NO but it has effected wrestlers that I coach and other good wrestlers around the state. I think it is a valid issue and I try to support it getting resolved.
The series idea has already been proven to work. It has created some of the biggest or TOUGHEST tournaments that OK has to offer. Yes I know the WOW series are the kings of OK but you look in JOC and Mustang and those are some good tournaments in its self.

I could just throw my hands in the air and walk away from this but I feel like it is our duty to try to give back to the sport that has given so much to us.

If the series idea happens it is one that is open to participation or not. Its not something that will be forced down your throat. If it works then eventually you will feel compelled to go cause that's where all the best competition will be but it will be you choice not to.

Here in the weeks to come there will be another thread with the details of the series idea. That thread will be looking for feedback as well. I really think that if we work together we can make a series that can benefit the whole state.

That is a subject for another thread but I can tell you, the issue will never be resolved in a manner which will suit you! Because I can't see our organization going back to unlimited heavyweight groups. We've been there and done that. Anyone that was truely interested in the "competition", would have to feel the same.


Yeah, I'm sure Oklahoma has some good little tournaments. Then again, so does Kansas. The thing Kansas has more of is, the smaller tournaments. Those exact same tournaments the series will put out of business if it was established. Now we can argue about this back and forth forever but that is the opinion of myself and others. You guys can glorify Oklahoma and all it does in wrestling but I believe our state is superior, particularly at the youth level.


Just because your first idea gets shot down doesn't mean you have to quit giving back!


Of course nobody would be forced, and it hasn't been suggested that they would be forced. Instead it will happen by natural progression and totally unintended, but it will happen none the less. If a club is not able to host a tournament it has greatly reduced it's sustainability. A club tournament, besides raising needed funds, serves as the glue in many cases, that hold these groups together.
You can go ahead and turn wrestling into the "traveling" team mentalilty that so many other youth sports must endure, and it will only lead to our demise. We can make this a sport of the parent who has the money to travel all over the midwest or maybe the U.S. but you will only be reducing opportunities for kids. If the clubs fold, the supply of kids folds which creates even more need to travel. We need the mom and pop wrestling club in Podunk Kansas as much or more than we need any regional, national or "series".
Has the "super-sizing" of anything, ever been good for us the consumers? I say leave our tournaments alone, don't try to "super-size" them.

Okay here it is, the key to "fixing" Kansas wrestling. We give every kid entered at every tournament a trophy with no placing on them so everyone is equal and everyone wants to keep wrestling.
The series idea is not a good idea: Reasons : False sense of accomplishment : Another award for little or no effort:gives wrestlers false sense of superiority

If you want to make Kansas wrestling better: tournament directors make only 1 bracket per age and weight: Reduce awards to top 3 only for weekend tournaments:
If you want to copy another state then make it the most dominant state like pa, no novicedivision, no b,c,d brackets, and no awards for participation
just my opinion mike pirl

Please explain how b brackets & novice tournaments hurt kansas wrestling?? I know other people feel the same way but I just dont get it. Both my boys have placed at tulsa so they are A-AA-AAA or whatever. I dont want my boys wrestling novice wrestlers. Its a waste of mat time in a tournament. I do agree with all the other points you make. Also I agree with all the points that sport0 made in his last post.

I also dont think that bracketing a novice wrestler in a bracket full of experienced & skilled wrestlers is good for the novice wrestler or kansas wrestling. I do belive that at open tournaments it will & can happen. If it can be easily avoided why not?? dont get me wrong here if you enter a open tourny expect to wrestle a open class wrestler. but if the novice kids can be seperated without jacking up the bracket i dont see the down side.

ok, I should have been a little bit clearer, Open tourneys should not have more than one bracket, have all the novice tourneys you want to, I believe that you have got to wrestle better kids to get better and staying in novice or the "b" bracket is not gonna get you any better.
Thank you Luellen for pointing out that oversite on my part "sincerely" Mike Pirl

1. I DO NOT want to see an unlimited heavy weight class!
There is a much needed readjustment of the heavier weights. We are leaving good KS kids at home every weekend because they are too big. A few of them are some of the best in the country in the national tournaments. We can pool the kids at the heavier weights. If there are enough kids in the allowed weight differential to fill a state bracket more than half way then I say let them wrestle.



2. I’m not glorifying Oklahoma at all! They have something that works and we can copy and make better! Plus, I have already proven in this thread that KS has too many tournaments and it is diluting the competition week in and week out! We need to have some clubs not do multiple tournaments! We need some of the smaller ones try to Co-op! We need some to switch from a small open to a Sunday novice!



3. All you do is shoot down ideas! How do you consider that giving back? You have a lot of wrestling knowledge but until you post your name and stop being negatives ALL THE TIME... You have no credibility!



4. All you are saying here is that the series idea will work and it will drive all the best competition to its tournaments every week. I’m saying we won’t have a series tournament every week to leave room for the smaller guy. We are not talking about adding tournaments. We are talking about taking existing tournaments and using them as a part of the series. If they continue to grow then they can Co-op with smaller clubs and become 2 day events! This is what one of the Sprawl organizers told me they plan to do this year! They will let smaller clubs come in and use them as a fundraiser in return for their support and man power!
And don’t start yelling about the cost of 2 day events! Clubs do 2 or 3 of these in OK each year. Maybe they can skip one and support KS wrestling. Maybe all those OK kids will start coming here instead!

I promise this award will be earned!



This is what we are talking about! Series tournaments will only have one bracket per weight class! If a novice kid wants to jump in here then all the power to him but he needs to know what he's in for! Awards for top four! Points for the top six!
The only participation award is the awesome wrestling competition that you see every week!

What is your ideas on what needs to be done?

I see that 8U goes to 125lbs with 13 wrestlers in the bracket. I guess they could add a 140or50 I think the bracket would be half full at best.

10U goes to 170 with 8 in the bracket. I dont see what can be done here. If they add a heavier weight I will assume that the bracket will be a 2-5 man RR at best.

12U goes to 240 its a three man RR. If they add a heavier weight I will assume the bracket will be empty or just handing a award & state championship to a kid that did not win a match.

14U goes to 265 its a 4 man RR. Adding a heavier division here wont do any thing positive for Kansas wrestling either.

It seems to me that Kansas is trying it best to get heavyweights involved in the state tourny.

8U and 10U are where I see the biggest needs. Some of those kids had to cut to make that weight and we did leave some kids behind.
Also if you look at the numbers of the TRUE 8Us in the lower weights you will see that those numbers are way lower then the heavy weights. Its just that they have 6U kids to fill those brackets.

Luellen
Why not pool bracket these heavy weights like you guys do your tournament in Rossville.
If there are not more then NINE kids signed up in the subs combined then we refund their money due to lack of competition.

I think that expanding the weight ranges could be helpful. What are your suggestions on that. Remember you have to stay in ks weight difference guidlines.

Been away for a few days, so haven't finished reading the thread to see if anyone else said this: USJOC wasn't always a series tourney was it? The series is not waht makes Mustang a decent tourney, the location is. Central OK. Ted Anderson tourney has been around a long time,but the series didn't make it great, its location and timing, pretty early in the year for KS gets quite a few KS kids.

And by the way, I believe, way back early on in this thread, it was hijacked. I think back to that post by some mom that said "great idea, and let's call the winner an All American".

I reacted to it as did many others. If we focus on BLT's attempt to get KS' best kids together more often, we might like the idea a little more. If I were to support it, it still would have to be just a small 3 tourney series, so the little tourneys didn't get swallowed up. Again, I have had many of our kids win that OK series, but more often than not, if you go down and win 3 or 4 tourneys, you don't have to go anymore, you have the points wrapped up.

Yes we could look to expand and add more weight classes but take those top two weights and make pools of kids that fit inside those difference guidelines.
For example instead of having a 190 class at 10U you could have a class that runs from 182 to 202 if you pooled those weights. And with the new trackwrestling profiles its a little easier to get an idea as to about what kids are weighing so If I was a 201 pound kid and I could see that I might want to lose about 6 pounds coming close to around state time to make sure is was within the limits of all the other profiles I've seen that are close to my weight.
Again these are just ideas. We could also look to expand a few weight classes but I think this would be a more cost effective way of doing it.
JMO
I don't claim to have all the RIGHT answers but I do ask good questions and always try to offer some sort of solution.