I believe the bible is a collection of ancient stories, fables and myths that were written to help people live right. It does not contain all of the answers instead it creates more questions than answers. I dont think anyone knows the orgin of life creationism and the big bang theory are both unrealistic answers. I do believe in an old earth and evolution, there is just way too much evidence to think otherwise. I also went to a fundamentalist christian church for a time and was saved. Then i started studying the bible and realized for the most part it just was not true, there is really no evidence that Jesus ever existed outside of the bible. The christians point to Josepheus but he was born about 40 years after Jesus death. I don't think anyone has the answer, maybe one day science will figure it. Who knows maybe a greater being did get this whole thing started, I just don't think it is the god in the bible.

I grew up going to a Methodist church on Christmas and Easter whether I liked it or not. I always thought I was a Christian, that the bible was good, Jesus was good and that I was good. When I was 34 I visited a church by my house and shortly thereafter was visited by three people from the church. I remember seeing them pull up and I saying, "Why are the church people here?" They asked me two of the most important questions that I've ever been asked. First, was I at a place in my spiritual life that if I died that day, was I sure that I'd go to heaven? Then they asked me, if I died that day and I stood before God and He asked me, Eric, why should I let you in My heaven? I remember pausing for a long while. Thinking silently of answers like, I try to do the right thing or I think I'm a pretty good person. I decided those answers were pretty weak so I said, I don't know. It was then that they shared the gospel of Jesus Christ with me. At the end, they asked if I wanted to pray for salvation in Christ and I said no. I wasn't embarrassed to say no, I just didn't know what yes would mean. They thanked me for the conversation and said they hoped to see me back at church. After they left, I found a bible that I had never read and went straight to the end to see how it ended. I never do that with books but was very interested at that point to read the end. In Revelation 21:8, it talks about all these bad people that would end up in the lake of fire. I didn't associate myself with any of those people. Then I stared at the word for one group of people in that verse. It said "unbelievers. By saying no, I was defined as an unbeliever. Now that bothered me. God used that answer to get me to find out what the bible actually said. I went to church Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night. I sat front and center and was amazed at who Jesus actually was. I thought the book was all about love and found out about God's holiness and wrath. It took me nine months to pour over scripture and finally realized that I was seperated from a holy, righteous and just God because of my sin. In July of 1996, I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross for my salvation.

That's my story Dean!

Actually it says that nobody can live right.

That were written to **HELP** people live right.

He didn't say that it DOES help people live right. Some do, some don't. We are not clones, but individuals.

Dean Welsh

Cool story brother Eric! Even if you do not consider this non-fundy your brother any more. Ha.

Sounds like you got the James Kennedy evangelism program put on you (I think they called it "Evangelism Explosion" or something like that - one could google it if they wanted to). That had a nice, big long run for several years. Then Rick Warren came
along . . .

Thanks again for sharing.

Sincerely,

Dean

I will have to have a sit down with you about Rick Warren. We can meet in Topeka!

Since we have brought up the topic of eternity, this is what I believe! Thanks for taking time to read this...

How to go to Heaven:

"Who do you think that I am?" With that brief question Jesus Christ confronted His followers with the most important issue they would ever face. He had spent much time with them and made some bold claims about His identity and authority. Now the time had come for them either to believe or deny His teachings.

Who do you say Jesus is? Your response to Him will determine not only your values and lifestyle, but your eternal destiny as well. Consider what the Bible says about Him.

JESUS IS GOD
While Jesus was on earth there was much confusion about who He was. Some thought He was a wise man or a great prophet. Others thought He was a madman. Still others couldn't decide or didn't care. But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh

Many people today don't understand that Jesus claimed to be God. They're content to think of Him as little more than a great moral teacher. But even His enemies understood His claims to deity. That's why they tried to stone Him to death (John 5:18; 10:33) and eventually had Him crucified (John 19:7)

C.S. Lewis observed, "You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to" (Mere Christianity [Macmillan, 1952], pp. 40-41).

If the biblical claims of Jesus are true, He is God!

JESUS IS HOLY
God is absolutely and perfectly holy (Isaiah 6:3), therefore He cannot commit or approve of evil (James 1:13).

As God, Jesus embodied every element of God's character. Colossians 2:9 says, "In Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form." He was perfectly holy (Hebrews 4:15). Even His enemies couldn't prove any accusation against Him (John 8:46)

God requires holiness of us as well. First Peter 1:16 says, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."

JESUS IS THE SAVIOR
Our failure to obey God--to be holy--places us in danger of eternal punishment (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The truth is, we cannot obey Him because we have neither the desire nor the ability to do so. We are by nature rebellious toward God (Ephesians 2:1-3). The Bible calls our rebellion "sin." According to Scripture, everyone is guilty of sin: "There is no man who does not sin" (1 Kings 8:46). "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). And we are incapable of changing our sinful condition. Jeremiah 13:23 says, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."

That doesn't mean we're incapable of performing acts of human kindness. We might even be involved in various religious or humanitarian activities. But we're utterly incapable of understanding, loving, or pleasing God on our own. The Bible says, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God; all have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one" (Romans 3:10-12). God's holiness and justice demand that all sin be punished by death: "The soul who sins will die" (Ezekiel 18:4). That's hard for us to understand because we tend to evaluate sin on a relative scale, assuming some sins are less serious than others. However, the Bible teaches that all acts of sin are the result of sinful thinking and evil desires. That's why simply changing our patterns of behavior can't solve our sin problem or eliminate its consequences. We need to be changed inwardly so our thinking and desires are holy.

Jesus is the only one who can forgive and transform us, thereby delivering us from the power and penalty of sin: "There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Even though God's justice demands death for sin, His love has provided a Savior, who paid the penalty and died for sinners: "Christ ... died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God" (1 Peter 3:18). Christ's death satisfied the demands of God's justice, thereby enabling Him to forgive and save those who place their faith in Him (Romans 3:26). John 3:16 says, "God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life." He alone is "our great God and Savior" (Titus 2:13).

JESUS IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE OBJECT OF SAVING FAITH
Some people think it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere. But without a valid object your faith is useless.

If you take poison--thinking it's medicine--all the faith in the world won't restore your life. Similarly, if Jesus is the only source of salvation, and you're trusting in anyone or anything else for your salvation, your faith is useless.

Many people assume there are many paths to God and that each religion represents an aspect of truth. But Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me" (John 14:6). He didn't claim to be one of many equally legitimate paths to God, or the way to God for His day only. He claimed to be the only way to God--then and forever.

JESUS IS LORD
Contemporary thinking says man is the product of evolution. But the Bible says we were created by a personal God to love, serve, and enjoy endless fellowship with Him.

The New Testament reveals it was Jesus Himself who created everything (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Therefore He also owns and rules everything (Psalm 103:19). That means He has authority over our lives and we owe Him absolute allegiance, obedience, and worship.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Confessing Jesus as Lord means humbly submitting to His authority (Philippians 2:10-11). Believing that God has raised Him from the dead involves trusting in the historical fact of His resurrection--the pinnacle of Christian faith and the way the Father affirmed the deity and authority of the Son (Romans 1:4; Acts 17:30-31).

True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is more than simply being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin and pursue holiness (Isaiah 55:7). Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15); and "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. Their faith is not genuine. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Jesus is the sovereign Lord. When you obey Him you are acknowledging His lordship and submitting to His authority. That doesn't mean your obedience will always be perfect, but that is your goal. There is no area of your life that you withhold from Him.

JESUS IS THE JUDGE
All who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior will one day face Him as their Judge: "God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

Second Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power."

HOW WILL YOU RESPOND
Who does the Bible say Jesus is? The living God, the Holy One, the Savior, the only valid object of saving faith, the sovereign Lord, and the righteous Judge.

Who do you say Jesus is? That is the inescapable question. He alone can redeem you--free you from the power and penalty of sin. He alone can transform you, restore you to fellowship with God, and give your life eternal purpose. Will you repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?

If we are created in gods image as the bible says, doesn't that also make god a sinner?? Doesn't god say he is a jealous and vengeful god, aren't jealousy and vengance sins?

Eric, I'd love to sit down and talk with you about Rick and many other things. However, fourth quarter of school has just started and it will take all of my fumes left in my tank to finish well!

However, if you have the time and the interest, maybe you can PM me about your thoughts on Rick Warren.

Sincerely,

Dean

PS: I got a buddy who lives in Roeland Park. Is that near you? I usually see him once during the summer. Maybe we could share a meal then - if gas isn't ten bucks a gallon by then!

The bible does not teach a "young earth". The earth is not 6,000 years old nowhere in the bible does it say this, the scientific evidence shows us the earth is much older than that. Modern day scientific age of the earth is not in contradiction with the bible.

The bible can trace the first man called "Adam" to around 6,000 years ago, you are correct here, Adam gave birth to the adamic race.

Biologically and scientifically speaking, how is it possible for the pure-blooded black, asian, and white races to have descended from Adam and Eve, Noah and his wife, or any other common ancestor? Could Adam and Eve reproduce and have black, white, and asian children? Of course not. That's biologically impossible.

The black, white, and asian races -- in their pure-blooded states, absent any mixing among the races -- are of completely different lineage. They were created separately, and are essentially different species of "humans." The fact that separate races can interbreed (and produce hybrid species) is not proof of common origin or common species, as this phenomenon exists among other animals -- eg, lion and tiger can mate and produce a hybrid "liger", horse and donkey to produce mule, etc.

The Bible -- when translated and interpreted correctly-- confirms the fact that Adam was not the first "human." There were other people on the earth before Adam was created. That is why Cain feared other people would kill him after he was banished, and how Cain was able to find a wife, have his own descendants, and build a city after being banished from Adam & Eve and their descendants.

"One plants, another waters, but ONLY God can make things grow..."

Dudes, you have planted and watered here plenty, maybe rassler will get it someday. If you persists, then are you being obedient to Mt 7:6 and 1 Pet 3:15?

Just something to think about . . .

Dean Welsh

Wow. These statements are flat out false. If you knew anything about genetics, you would know that is ridiculous. Different races were created seperately???? What?

Every human being in the world is classified as Homo sapiens. Scientists today agree that there is really only one biological race of humans. Geneticists have found that if we were to take any two people from anywhere in the world, the basic genetic differences between these two people would typically be around 0.2 percent, even if they came from the same people group. “Racial” characteristics account for only about 6 percent of this 0.2 percent variation. That means that the “racial” genetic variation between human beings of different “race” is a mere 0.012 percent.

Overall, there is far more variation within a people group than there is between one people group and another. Anyone who continues to make racist distinctions does so based only on superficial, outward appearances rather than on sound scientific fact and clear biblical reasoning. If a Native American person is looking for a tissue match for an organ transplant, for instance, the best match may come from an Asian person, and vice versa.

The only reason many people think these differences are major is because they’ve been brought up in a culture that has taught them to see the differences this way. Race is a social construct derived mainly from the perceptions conditioned by the events of recorded history, and it has no basic biological reality. . . . curiously enough the idea comes very close to being of American manufacture.

More and more scientists find that the differences that set us apart are cultural, not racial. Some even say that the word race should be abandoned because it’s meaningless. . . . We accept the idea of race because it’s a convenient way of putting people into broad categories, frequently to suppress them . . . the most hideous example is provided by Hitler’s Germany. . . . What the facts show is that there are differences among us, but they stem from culture, not race.

In Genesis 11 we read of the rebellion at the Tower of Babel. God judged this rebellion by giving each family group a different language. This made it impossible for the groups to understand each other, and so they split apart, each extended family going its own way, and finding a different place to live. The result was that the people were scattered over the earth.

Because of the new language and geographic barriers, the groups no longer freely mixed with other groups, and the result was a splitting of the gene pool. Different cultures formed, with certain features becoming predominant within each group. The characteristics of each became more and more prominent as new generations of children were born. If we were to travel back in time to Babel, and mix up the people into completely different family groups, then people groups with completely different characteristics might result. For instance, we might find a fair-skinned group with tight, curly dark hair that has blue, almond-shaped eyes. Or a group with very dark skin, blue eyes, and straight brown hair.

Some of these (skin color, eye shape, and so on) became general characteristics of each particular people group through various selection pressures (environmental, sexual, etc.) and/or mutation.31 For example, because of the protective factor of melanin, those with darker skin would have been more likely to survive in areas where sunlight is more intense (warmer, tropical areas near the equator), as they are less likely to suffer from diseases such as skin cancer. Those with lighter skin lack the melanin needed to protect them from the harmful UV rays, and so may have been more likely to die before they were able to reproduce. UVA radiation also destroys the B vitamin folate, which is necessary for DNA synthesis in cell division. Low levels of folate in pregnant women can lead to defects in the developing baby. Again, because of this, lighter-skinned individuals may be selected against in areas of intense sunlight.

On the flip side, melanin works as a natural sunblock, limiting the sunlight’s ability to stimulate the liver to produce vitamin D, which helps the body absorb calcium and build strong bones. Since those with darker skin need more sunlight to produce vitamin D, they may not have been as able to survive as well in areas of less sunlight (northern, colder regions) as their lighter-skinned family members, who don’t need as much sunlight to produce adequate amounts of vitamin D. Those lacking vitamin D are more likely to develop diseases such as rickets (which is associated with a calcium deficiency), which can cause slowed growth and bone fractures. It is known that when those with darker skin lived in England during the Industrial Revolution, they were quick to develop rickets because of the general lack of sunlight.

Of course, these are generalities. Exceptions occur, such as in the case of the darker-skinned Inuit tribes living in cold northern regions. However, their diet consists of fish, the oil of which is a ready source of vitamin D, which could account for their survival in this area.

Real science in the present fits with the biblical view that all people are rather closely related—there is only one race biologically. Therefore, to return to our original question, there is, in essence, no such thing as interracial marriage.

You state that nowhere in the bible does it state that the earth is young. A literal reading of Genesis clearly says that the earth was created in 6 days. The Hebrew word "yom", when preceded by a number ALWAYS means one actual day. Adam was created on the sixth day, he lived the whole sixth day, then the seventh day and he lived many years longer. He was obviously not millions of years old.

Cain's wife is easily understood! If we now work totally from Scripture, without any personal prejudices or other extrabiblical ideas, then back at the beginning, when there was only the first generation, brothers would have had to marry sisters or there wouldn’t have been any more generations!

We’re not told when Cain married or many of the details of other marriages and children, but we can say for certain that Cain’s wife was either his sister or a close relative.

A closer look at the Hebrew word for “wife” in Genesis reveals something readers may miss in translation. It was more obvious to those speaking Hebrew that Cain’s wife was likely his sister. (There is a slim possibility that she was his niece, but either way, a brother and sister would have married in the beginning.) The Hebrew word for “wife” used in Genesis 4:17 (the first mention of Cain’s wife) is ishshah, and it means “woman/wife/female.”

And Cain knew his wife [ishshah], and she conceived and bore Enoch. And he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son—Enoch (Genesis 4:17).
The word ishshah is the word for “woman,” and it means “from man.” It is a derivation of the Hebrew words ‘iysh (pronounced: eesh) and enowsh, which both mean “man.” This can be seen in Genesis 2:23 where the name “woman” (ishshah) is given to one who came from Adam.

And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman [ishshah], because she was taken out of Man [iysh]” (Genesis 2:23).
Thus, Cain’s wife is a descendant of Adam/man. Therefore, she had to be his sister (or possibly niece). Hebrew readers should be able to make this connection easier; however, much is lost when translated.

There is MUCH MORE about this topic that I can share with you. Clearly your statements were made without knowing the evidence. Study all the facts!

So basically according to the bible we are just a bunch of inbred hillbillies?
Chief didn't the tower of babel take place about 150 years after adam was created. Boy not only were they hillbillies but they bred like rabbits to produce that many offspring in a short amount of time.

No way!!! Where did you get that?

According to the biblical account, the tower of Babel was built somewhere between 1757 to 1996 years after creation. Also your inbred comment shows a serious lack of understanding of genetics in those early years. It sounds funny, but that's all you have.

My mistake I meant to say about 150 years after Noah's flood. So the 8 people that survived the flood repopulated the earth in this short amount of time?

Not 150. Almost 400 years after the flood.

Many have done the math and have figured out that it is possible that Shem, Ham, Japheth and their wives could have repopulated the earth, keeping in mind that when their sons and daughters were of child bearing age that they would be included in repopulating the earth. Another fact to be considered is that up until this point in the bible, it mentions that men have lived up to about 1,000 years. We must assume that this is the case for women as well. This also implies that women would have had the ability to bear children much longer than is currently possible. So it would have been possible for Noah’s sons and their offspring to repopulate the earth.

Chief all of the research I have done, even biblical scholors place the tower of babel 100-150 years after the flood, How did you get 400 years?

The flood was about 1500 years after creation. The tower of Babel was anywhere from 1775 to 1995 years after. There are several scholars that place it 450 years after the flood.

According to answers in genesis, which is a very respected website within the fundamentalist christian world it has the flood taking place in 2348B.C. and the tower of Babel in 2242 B.C which is only 106 years. where are you getting your information?

There are several credible ranges of between 100 and 400 years between the flood and the tower of babel.

Let's look at the facts!

Fact: gestation period for a human is roughly 9 months
Fact: a human can easily have a baby every year during child bearing years
Fact: child bearing years last AT LEAST 20 years

So, year zero being the exiting of the Ark.

This is of course conservative, and doesn't take into account variables that can't be taken into account as this is a fact based look.

Noah and 3 sons and 4 wives have a child every year for 20 years. At year 20 then, there are a total of 80 children.

Since this is conservative, I'm waiting 20 years before reproducing any children from the children, ie the next set of child bearing children will be between the ages of 20 and 40.

So at year 40, those 80 children begin reproducing for 20 consecutive years. After 20 years of reproduction, those 80 children will turn into 800 children. This is year 60, and there are 800 children on top of the 80 and 4.

So at year 80, those 800 children who are now between the ages of 20 and 40 begin reproducing. This results in a population of 8,000 at year 100.

Sticking with the 20 year wait period. At year 120 those 8,000 begin reproducing resulting in 80,000 children of the ages of 20 - 40 at year 160.

So at year 200, there are 800,000 children who begin reproducing.

Resulting in 8 million children between the ages of 20 and 40 at year 240.

So at year 280 there are 80 million children between the ages of 20 and 40 able to reproduce, and at year 320 there are 800,000,000 who begin reproducing...

Leaving us at a tidy and fully factually possible sum, based on human genetics and child birth, at 8 BILLION PEOPLE ON THE PLANET 360 YEARS AFTER NOAH LEFT THE ARK.

Explain to me again why 8 billion people can't build a few pyramids of stone?

Look at facts instead of theories when questioning what is possible.