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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Mike Juby] #215035 02/19/13 05:49 PM
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Someone else mentioned earlier whether there are different punishments for "good kids".

Well, I have news for you: the justice system DOES work that way. If you have robbed a bank before, and get caught, do your time, then rob another bank, your punishment will be harsher than the guy that is a first timer......

DUIs, theft, assault, etc. charges will all be more serious for repeat offenders.

I am not aware of Spencer being one of those kids that anyone would refer to as a "punk" that resorts to this sort of behavior on a regular basis.

Again, I saw a lot of unnecessary roughness that only drew a talking to by the refs at Augusta, and the "problem" was solved.

Sorry Beeson again, I know that unnecessary roughness is necessary.......

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Mark J Stanley] #215040 02/19/13 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mike Juby
One major problem with an online talk forum is that statements can be repeated so frequently that they become generally accepted as true, even when preceded with qualifiers such as "if it is true" or "assuming things were as stated."
.......
It has also been alleged that the Shawnee Heights coaches were pushing for the FM call, an allegation that has been then repeated several times until it appears to be almost accepted as fact.

I have heard from the SHHS coaching staff and, although they admitted to being upset over the head butt, they were adamant that they did not request or pressure the official to declare a flagrant misconduct. I know Coach Parks well and am confident that he would not deny this if it were the case. I'd like to caution everyone about being careful about accepting unsupported allegations as fact!


Originally Posted By: Mark J Stanley
Here is what I saw...

Meck had the match in hand (but when you can work head/arm like Spencer you are never out of it)

With time running out, Wilson "lunged" at Meck...the video is now posted so everyone on here can make their own judgment. The only one who knows for sure what the "intent" of the lunge was is Wilson...but my interpretation was that it was not intended to harm Meck in a "Flagrant" manner. I thought he was lunging to get a reaction from Meck that he could exploit...kind of like Meck's "spinning back fist" that doesn't hit the mark does. Because his opponents react to his motion and it sets up a double leg. Meck had two of these "spinning back fist" attempts that failed in the match up at Centennial League versus Wilson.
After the incident occurred Wilson handled the situation "in control" (he in no way looked like someone who was “out of control” that warranted a career ending FM call to end his senior season). Seaman's coaches did not stomp their feet and act out of control... they knew that a FM call could not be argued mat side. If it were to be reversed or overturned it would have to be the decision of the referee or through an appeal to KSHSAA. The Official did initially reverse/overturn the call and changed the call to unsportsmanlike conduct (which would not of carried the same penalty as Flagrant Misconduct)...he did so on his own after consulting with the second official on the mat. Which is what Meck was asking for (if read his comments in the CJ Online article you will see for yourself…”LET IT GO”). The Shawnee Heights coaches in the corner felt differently and pleaded the case to the official to stick with his original call. After some deliberation, that is what the official did…he reversed his reversal and Spencer was called for Flagrant Misconduct.

After the “final” ruling Wilson handled himself with class...while disappointed he didn't in anyway act out of control. He discussed the ruling calmly with the official and hung his head. Meck and Wilson were both witnessed together 15 minutes after the call occurred and there appeared to be no hard feelings on either side (as reported in the article by CJ Online above).

Wilson is a good kid that has had a few tough draws in his life…this may just be the latest in that string. I am sure he will handle this situation as he has any other hurdle he has faced. What I have witnessed over the years is a young man that is willing to work with our young kids in club rooms, I have seen him officiating at tourneys on Sunday's, and he put a lot of work in to come back from a severe auto accident last Spring let alone get back to where he is at as a competitor on the mat. I have never witnessed Spencer Wilson out of control in any way…and I still say this after what I witnessed on Saturday.

I am positive that Spencer wishes he could have the “3 seconds” back on Saturday to "do over". The point of this post is to retell what occurred on Saturday with “context” and to tell the wrestling community that I am still a Spencer Wilson "fan". I do this under my own name and will stand behind him. I am not sure if Spencer will be able to get a second chance this weekend or not. That decision is above my pay grade...but I ask the wrestling community to please support this young man if he does, because I believe he deserves a second chance and he has earned all of our support for the composite of his actions both on and off the mat. I only hope when I meet my maker I am not judged by the worst “3 seconds” of my life alone. Thank you.

Mark Stanley


I was not there, but from the above post by Mark Stanley, he said HERE IS WHAT I SAW.

Somebody is wrong. Either Stanley did NOT see the SMH coaches pleading for the FM, or the SMH coaches were not being truthful when they said that they were not arguing with the official for FM.

One or the other. The fact that the officials reversed a reversal would argue that they were persuaded to change it, by something or someone. Sounds to me like someone...,

Last edited by BulldogAlum; 02/19/13 06:14 PM.
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: BulldogAlum] #215049 02/19/13 07:08 PM
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It is my understanding that Mark Stanley was working the table on that match and heard all comments from both refs and coaches.


Eric Johnson


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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: BulldogAlum] #215050 02/19/13 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted By: BulldogAlum
Originally Posted By: HokaheyCoach
I want to say something in defense of the Heights coaching staff and say that Coach Albers and Coach Parks are great people and they did not go after Spencer. I heard it myself that neither of them wish to see a career end like that. With that I say that Spencer was wrong and made a bad decision at a very bad time. I know I wish to see him continue as does Nick and the Heights staff as we are all wrestling fans... the last thing I want to hear is there was a Heights coach trying to lesson the competition for Nick come state... I think after the score at :15 left in the 3rd, we all know that Nick is the one to beat.


From what I have read on this thread, (A) the official initially called FM (B) he then reversed himself and called it USC. (C) The Heights coaches were arguing with the official, saying that it should be FM, the Seaman coaching staff did not argue pro or con, they waited for the official's decision. (D) the Heights coaches KNEW that if they were successful in arguing their case for FM that Wilson would be disqualified for State; ultimately the decision was made by the official to re-reverse the call and make it FM, thus automatic DQ for Wilson at State.

Conclusion: The Heights coaches WANTED the disqualification, otherwise, why argue for FM? Their wrestler was going to State anyway, right?

Just my observations as a disinterested fan, got no dog in this fight... But if the facts above are as stated, then a reasonable conclusion could be drawn that the Heights coaches wanted Wilson eliminated as competition.
Hard to believe, right?



Like Mike just mentioned, most that is stated on here is mere opinion not fact. I was not at the scoring table to hear what was said but I was privy to a conversation after the tournament in which the Heights staff made it clear that they were not in support of a wrestler ending his career like that. Just defending their character is all.


Scott Walker


There are no losers in wrestling ...only winners & learners!
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: HokaheyCoach] #215052 02/19/13 07:24 PM
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Scott,

Just PM'd you the testimony of the table worker that heard all involved.


Eric Johnson


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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: HokaheyCoach] #215054 02/19/13 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: HokaheyCoach
Originally Posted By: BulldogAlum
Originally Posted By: HokaheyCoach
I want to say something in defense of the Heights coaching staff and say that Coach Albers and Coach Parks are great people and they did not go after Spencer. I heard it myself that neither of them wish to see a career end like that. With that I say that Spencer was wrong and made a bad decision at a very bad time. I know I wish to see him continue as does Nick and the Heights staff as we are all wrestling fans... the last thing I want to hear is there was a Heights coach trying to lesson the competition for Nick come state... I think after the score at :15 left in the 3rd, we all know that Nick is the one to beat.


From what I have read on this thread, (A) the official initially called FM (B) he then reversed himself and called it USC. (C) The Heights coaches were arguing with the official, saying that it should be FM, the Seaman coaching staff did not argue pro or con, they waited for the official's decision. (D) the Heights coaches KNEW that if they were successful in arguing their case for FM that Wilson would be disqualified for State; ultimately the decision was made by the official to re-reverse the call and make it FM, thus automatic DQ for Wilson at State.

Conclusion: The Heights coaches WANTED the disqualification, otherwise, why argue for FM? Their wrestler was going to State anyway, right?

Just my observations as a disinterested fan, got no dog in this fight... But if the facts above are as stated, then a reasonable conclusion could be drawn that the Heights coaches wanted Wilson eliminated as competition.
Hard to believe, right?



Like Mike just mentioned, most that is stated on here is mere opinion not fact. I was not at the scoring table to hear what was said but I was privy to a conversation after the tournament in which the Heights staff made it clear that they were not in support of a wrestler ending his career like that. Just defending their character is all.


I have heard from more than one source that Mark Stanley worked the table and heard the comments from the officials and from the coaches.
I see no reason to disbelieve what he said, and I repeat, the fact that the official reversed his reversal lends credence to the account.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: doug747] #215055 02/19/13 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: doug747
Someone else mentioned earlier whether there are different punishments for "good kids".

Well, I have news for you: the justice system DOES work that way. If you have robbed a bank before, and get caught, do your time, then rob another bank, your punishment will be harsher than the guy that is a first timer......

DUIs, theft, assault, etc. charges will all be more serious for repeat offenders.

I am not aware of Spencer being one of those kids that anyone would refer to as a "punk" that resorts to this sort of behavior on a regular basis.

Again, I saw a lot of unnecessary roughness that only drew a talking to by the refs at Augusta, and the "problem" was solved.

Sorry Beeson again, I know that unnecessary roughness is necessary.......


Don't apologize to me....I BELIEVE IT!


Unnecessary Roughness is Necessary
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Beeson] #215073 02/19/13 09:45 PM
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I have looked at the video almost frame by frame. I'll be darned if I can see any kind of violation. Think this was over acted and over analyized.
The kid in blue approached his opponent in a crouch, clearly with both his arms extended. Appears to be reaching for his opponent's right arm with his left hand and arm. His head throughout the move was aimed below the opponents head. The opponent pushed the head further down and the main contact is in the vicinity of the upper chest/breast bone. One poster said the wrestler's hands and arms were behind his back. Not so when he move forward. When the opponent pushed his head down the arms did naturally move back as he naturally tried to maintain his balance. Saw no blood, no opponent grabbing the his nose or holding his head, no looking for dilated eyes, and no first aid. Nothing!!---no flagrant misconduct---no unsportsmanship conduct. If any bad conduct it may have been by the opponent who appears to unnecessarily complain of a violation. And if the Heights coaches argged for DQ, that should have been ignored by the refs. Ref has to bear a lot of blame for this incident. If he initially reversed his call after consult with the second ref, incident should have been over. Why go to the scoreres table or coaches-that would have insured an arguement. The second reversal was a very, very bad decision!!!

Hope this bad call is reversed and the kid gets his trip to the Sate Tournament.

Last edited by WillyM; 02/20/13 12:16 AM.

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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: WillyM] #215075 02/19/13 10:00 PM
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I agree Bill!


Eric Johnson


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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: WillyM] #215077 02/19/13 10:15 PM
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Wow, quit blaiming the official. Do you really think officials just throw out Flagrant Misconduct calls randomly? Do you really think the official here didn't know what was at stake? It was a head butt. Head butts are illegal. When an illegal move occurs there is a penalty. The kid (and I believe he is a good kid) made a bad decision and is paying the price. For the love of all, quit blaming the official!


Jamie Sauder
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: J. Sauder] #215084 02/19/13 10:52 PM
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every year there is some one who has to face consequences of their behavior.

We can pull several from recent past. Makes you sick to your stomach when you hear about it and especially when those choices result in the end of a season.

You also hope it turns out for their good - and I have faith that these things do.


The older I get the better I was!
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: J. Sauder] #215085 02/19/13 11:02 PM
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Officiating is a tough job, I have officiated myself, and I know that the highest accolade for an official if for him/her to be "transparent", that is, to do their job in such a manner as to be non-obtrusive as much as is possible. In this case, I agree with others that Wilson brought much on himself with his late action. Was it deserving of FM? Probably not, if the official's indecisiveness is any indication. When in doubt, you don't hand out a career-ending penalty such as FM. Not just my opinion, either:

Originally Posted By: Rford
If the official did a "double reversal" as reported that is unfortunate because it makes him appear uncertain and unsure of himself.

The one "out" for a young official in this situation, and its hard for coaches to do, is if the coaches thought it was a bad call that both of them go to the table and ask that it be reversed. If that had happened, both head coaches asked for it, I believe the official might have changed his call. That didn't happen here, obviously. But I've had an opposing coach support the complaining coach's position and it makes reversing the call very easy.


The bolded portion above just strengthens my belief that not only did the SMH coaches not ask for the call to be USC, but that they actively lobbied for the FM.
Why else the re-reversal?

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: J. Sauder] #215090 02/19/13 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted By: J. Sauder
Wow, quit blaiming the official. Do you really think officials just throw out Flagrant Misconduct calls randomly? Do you really think the official here didn't know what was at stake? It was a head butt. Head butts are illegal. When an illegal move occurs there is a penalty. The kid (and I believe he is a good kid) made a bad decision and is paying the price. For the love of all, quit blaming the official!


Agreed. I'm sure the ref HATING making that call. But like another man of the past, he was held "captive by his conscience" and could make no other decision.

"Here I stand." MLK, the Reformer

Some talk about the call being change and Mr. Wilson being allowed to compete at the state meet. Can any one give one example of such a thing as that ever occurring at the state meet? I'm just curious.

Wouldn't it be insulting and possibly demoralizing to the ref?


D. Dean Welsh, Junction City
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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Dean Welsh] #215094 02/19/13 11:16 PM
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"Some talk about the call being change and Mr. Wilson being allowed to compete at the state meet."

"Wouldn't it be insulting and possibly demoralizing to the ref?"

That might lead to a Zebra strike...


Jamie Sauder
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Dean Welsh] #215096 02/19/13 11:19 PM
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"Here I stand." MLK, the Reformer

You are mistaken about your Martins.

Martin Luther said, "Here I stand." also the title of Roland Bainton's classic on Luthers life.

MLK said lots of other great things.


The older I get the better I was!
Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: Dean Welsh] #215098 02/19/13 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: Dean Welsh
Originally Posted By: J. Sauder
Wow, quit blaiming the official. Do you really think officials just throw out Flagrant Misconduct calls randomly? Do you really think the official here didn't know what was at stake? It was a head butt. Head butts are illegal. When an illegal move occurs there is a penalty. The kid (and I believe he is a good kid) made a bad decision and is paying the price. For the love of all, quit blaming the official!


Agreed. I'm sure the ref HATING making that call. But like another man of the past, he was held "captive by his conscience" and could make no other decision.

"Here I stand." MLK, the Reformer

Some talk about the call being change and Mr. Wilson being allowed to compete at the state meet. Can any one give one example of such a thing as that ever occurring at the state meet? I'm just curious.

Wouldn't it be insulting and possibly demoralizing to the ref?


Why would it be any worse than overturning a call by a football official? For certain, there is a lot more riding on a possible overturning of this call than on overturning a football official's incomplete pass call, for example.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: BulldogAlum] #215102 02/19/13 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: BulldogAlum
Originally Posted By: Dean Welsh
Originally Posted By: J. Sauder
Wow, quit blaiming the official. Do you really think officials just throw out Flagrant Misconduct calls randomly? Do you really think the official here didn't know what was at stake? It was a head butt. Head butts are illegal. When an illegal move occurs there is a penalty. The kid (and I believe he is a good kid) made a bad decision and is paying the price. For the love of all, quit blaming the official!


Agreed. I'm sure the ref HATING making that call. But like another man of the past, he was held "captive by his conscience" and could make no other decision.

"Here I stand." MLK, the Reformer

Some talk about the call being change and Mr. Wilson being allowed to compete at the state meet. Can any one give one example of such a thing as that ever occurring at the state meet? I'm just curious.

Wouldn't it be insulting and possibly demoralizing to the ref?


Why would it be any worse than overturning a call by a football official? For certain, there is a lot more riding on a possible overturning of this call than on overturning a football official's incomplete pass call, for example.


1. The NFL has NEVER overturned a call of an official on the field, nor has the NCAA, nor has KSHSAA.

2. Mark Lentz and KSHSAA are not endowed with the power to overturn this call and they wouldn't even if they could because the NFHS rule book specifically states that matters of judgement by the official are final.

I'm actually kind of confused as to why some people seem to think that the potential to change this call from KSHSAA is even a possibility, such action would undermine all faith that governing bodies put into their officials. This isn't the court system.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: BulldogAlum] #215103 02/19/13 11:31 PM
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I had the opportunity to watch a different video of the incident and i thought the meck kid handled the situation very well, very impressed by him.

Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: wrestlingspectat] #215104 02/19/13 11:32 PM
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Make sense to me. Thank you wrestlingspect.


D. Dean Welsh, Junction City
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Re: Spencer Wilson Ruling [Re: mfe] #215107 02/19/13 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted By: mfe
I am a 73 year old spectator and what i see in this video is not as bad as the last 8 seconds of the 126 lb. match at Augusta Reginal finals Saturday. Just my opinion. I wish i could see it again to confirm my disgust. I didn't know either wrestler.


I would be interested to hear what you saw. I know what I saw was not good.

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