6A Total 54,228 Avg 1,695 Students
5A Total 31,832 Avg 995 Students
4A Total 28,471 Avg 445 Students
321A Total 27,293 Avg 122 students

There are more students in the biggest 15 schools than there are in 4A and 321A

There are more students in the biggest 33 schools than there are in the smallest 288 schools.

We have a huge standard deviation in enrollment!

There are 221 Kansas high schools with wrestling, according to Kansaswrestling.org. If we assumed that these were the biggest 221 (which we know is not true but for sake of argument we will use this cut off point) the total student enrollment would be a total enrollment of 131,695.

How would you divide these schools up into less state tournaments than four (and Chad, I agree, one would be best!). To me the disparity in size makes it almost impossible to divide in any proportionately fair manner that also make sense from a number of schools perspective.

Derby 1919
Dodge City 1854
Garden City 2024
Hutchinson 1487
Junction City 1737
Maize 1387
Manhattan 1638
Wichita-East 2258
Wichita-Haysville Campus 1546
Wichita-North 2071
Wichita-Northwest 1415
Wichita-South 1601
Wichita-Southeast 1570

JOHNSON COUNTY
Gardner-Edgerton 1406
Olathe East 2046
Olathe North 2025
Olathe Northwest 1929
Olathe South 2090
OP-Blue Valley 1449
OP-Blue Valley North 1512
OP-Blue Valley Northwest 1593
OP-Blue Valley West 1357
Shawnee Mission East 1653
Shawnee Mission North 1500
Shawnee Mission Northwest 1752
Shawnee Mission South 1364
Shawnee Mission West 1755

TOPEKA AND EAST
Kansas City-Wyandotte 1444
Lawrence 1465
Lawrence-Free State 1555
Topeka 1739
Topeka-Washburn Rural 1817


Since the inception of the 6A Class in 1979 only two Johnson County High Schools have won a title, Blue Valley 1997 and the 2005 STA team. That is 2 out of 35... With 14 of the 32 schools being from Johnson County it seems that we need to challenge our wrestlers and coaches to break free from their traditional scheduling and training. It isn't working. We cannot get any better unless we all work together and plan. Without change there will be no improvement and all of you know this means that some of the change might be painful or a struggle to pull off. It is a simple equation for me, it is all about the kids and teaching them to aim for perfection in hopes of achieving some excellence along the way. Being stubborn and excluding or not changing because you are holding onto some ridiculous "tradition" is NOT going to improve your program.

Just to expand this position a little, you can draw a line just west of Topeka where you will find 50% of the population living on each side and just over 59% of the 6A schools and you will still only get two state champions since 1979.

5A
Andover 794
Arkansas City 775
Emporia 1103
Goddard 795
Goddard-Eisenhower 862
Great Bend 958
Hays 737
Liberal 1237
Maize South 764
Newton 1020
Salina-Central 988
Salina-South 1064
Valley Center 838
Wichita-Bishop Carroll 1170
Wichita-Heights 1304
Wichita-Kapaun Mount Carmel 880
Wichita-West 1336


Kansas City-FL Schlagle 812
Kansas City-JC Harmon 1265
Kansas City-Turner 1090
Kansas City-Washington 990
Lansing 879
Leavenworth 1334
Lenexa-St. James Academy 797
OP-Blue Valley Southwest 1059
OP-St. Thomas Aquinas 905
Pittsburg 771
Shawnee-Mill Valley 1290
Tecumseh-Shawnee Heights 1136
Topeka West 922
Topeka-Highland Park 755
Topeka-Seaman 1202

We can continue this argument into 5A as well where you will find that nearly 47% of the 5A schools are east of this mythical wrestle talent dividing wall.

Eastern KS schools are not fairing much better in 5A either going just 3 for 35. Does anyone disagree that this is a bit embarrassing???

It is time to CHANGE. We need to wake up and challenge our athletic directors, coaches, wrestlers, and parents to do things differently. Think outside of the box called the past and figure out some new plans. Make your schedule tougher. Walk the halls and grab those kids that are not a part of anything now. Figure out ways to get more kids involved like scheduling more tournaments and fielding two teams. "He is not ready for varsity" is the biggest crock of crap you can try to sell. If you have wrestlers at every weight then bring ALL of them! I guarantee you they will NOT get any better sitting at home playing X Box. USA Wrestling is offering a $300 deal to get ALL of your wrestlers a card. When KSHSAA season is over send them to the nearest kids club and tell them to wrestle in the USA Kids State Series. If you are afraid of what is happening in your kids club then get involved! It is time for the excuses to be put in the round file and lets develop some solutions (and by the way, OPEN MAT is not a solution!). Lets tip the scale and bring two state championship trophies EAST of that mythical line this year and every year hereafter!
_________________________

You act as though people in these communities give a crap about wrestling. They don't, and why would they? The only way a kid has a chance at placing at state is to devote his entire life to the sport. Many people can't afford to bring in world class coaches. Kansas wrestling may have gotten better on a national stage in the last 15 years, but if you ask me, it's killing the sport. In the 80's a person could join a team in Jr. high and still have success. Not today (very few). We have been so concerned about getting better that we have run off anyone who isn't. The result: nobody cares about wrestling anymore (except the few elite). The popularity is gone.

I would rather have 50 kids who have a chance at success over a few nationally elite. The outside world sees it as an individual sport because that's exactly what it has become.

If you want to see the kind of popularity wrestling had in the 80's we need to figure out a way for newer kids to be able to compete again.

I disagree that you have to devote your whole life to the sport to be a state placer. I am sure Beeson would agree since we most the kids who qualify for state. I have coached several kids who did not start wrestling until high school and they had success. Did they just wrestle during the high school season? No, they put in extra work outside the season, whether wrestling, lifting, or other means of conditioning.

I also don't feel that no one cares about wrestling anymore. I have worked in large schools (in Wichita) and currently working in a small school (Stafford) I think the sport is still very much so relevant. If anything I think the sport is growing in popularity. I am seeing more kids clubs and I think we have excellent wrestling advocates all over the state that do an excellent job promoting our sport.

Reality says just the opposite of what you posted.

http://www.nwcaonline.com/nwcawebsite/savingwrestlinghome/facts.aspx

Lots of good kids up in the northeast coming out of east kansas and a couple other clubs into high shcool? Is the talent just spread out to too many schools?

Ark City has 15-20 kids come out as 7th and 8th graders and have success. They continue at the High School level because Coach Buckbee makes it fun and exciting during High School.

I blame it on Parents and Kids wanting things without working for them. Johnson County is probably one of the richest counties in the state. A lot of kids and parents are used to being able to just buy what they want or get it easily. It's a mind set. I'm not saying every rich kid or rich parent doesn't know how to work or earn something because there are plenty that do.

The kids in these poor rural areas know how to work hard and earn what they get. Get 4 or 5 brothers at a dinner table and sometimes they have to fight just to get a bite.

I'm sure I'll take a beating for this post, but I usually do take beatings for my post. Food for thought, think about how hard your kids have to work for what they get in life. Do they know how to get knocked down and get back up, or do they get knocked down and quit?

I totally agree with the fact that kids want instant success without having to work hard for it!!! I also feel that one doesn't have to do all the national events to find success!! If they come out their 7th grade year are willing to work hard and are coachable then I feel they can be state placers before they graduate from high school!! I have that much confidence in my coaching staff to say that this is possible!! One of the biggest things we are proud of out here is the fact that we are successful with the demographics and social economic status of most of our kids! We get them to buy into our system and they are (most anyway) willing to put in the work it takes to be successful! Lastly it was said to get involved, that is so true!!

I sure didn't.

Hey, I'm just following your example. Posting my opinion all over the place when no one asked for it.

If you want to follow my example please bring data. If I have taught you to just run your mouth with your keyboard and no supporting evidence then I am a terrible teacher. Maybe you are challenged on the Forum because you have to refrain from lacing your posts with profanity like your comic routines.

It appears to me that a significant number of your posts are immediately following mine. I hope you don't have man crush on me?

Man up and admit that you showed your ignorance earlier today. I would.

Steve -- Although devoting one's life to the sport definitely helps in the level of success, there are still a few examples of that not being mandatory.

I had the pleasure of watching Michael Baker compete for Smoky Valley High School in 4A. He started wrestling as a sophomore in high school in 2004. He pinned his first opponent that year in some type of chest press that I had never witnessed before -- it literally looked like he was doing a push-up on top of his opponent. 2 days later, he went 0-2 in a JV tournament and walked off the mat saying "I'm never doing that @#$t again." Two years later, he placed 2nd at state with a record of 39-2 -- losing in the last second of a 6-5 match in the finals to Derek Heckel of Ulysses.

I'm not saying it was easy. But it can be done. It just takes the right attitude and a lot of hard work.

Just an idea I have had, but what would allowing successful jv wrestlers to compete in regionals as an unattached nonscoring wrestler do for the sport? I see it as a way to possibly solve a couple issues we have with the sport. In the 8 team regionals you could fill out a bracket to 12 kids with jv kids and make every bracket full and make everyone earn a trip to state. It would take care of the issue of loosing records qualifying for state because many schools have a 2nd or 3rd wrestler at a weight that could qualify if not place at state. Also it may keep some more kids interested in the sport at the high school level seeing that they will have more opportunity to get to the state tournament. Would just like to hear some feedback on the idea as I see it as a way to improve the sport.

Chief, those numbers are miss leading. Even you have to admit wrestling was more popular in the 80s. Back in the good old days whole towns would show up to watch a tournament or meet.


Ron, was that Baker kid in the upper weights? I find that newer kids can compete with a lot more success in the upper weights. You're not gonna find very many New kids in the middleweights are lower that places at state.

Corey, I like what you're thinking, it's not exactly what I had in mind, but that's the right track. I honestly think redoing the classes so that each one has 48 schools would help this problem.

Why not just have a JV state?

To me a jv state is kind of like the rookie nationals. Let the better jv kids have a chance to prove themselves against the better kids in the state. We are always looking to seek tougher competition. Also a jv state would have the added cost of another tournament. This way the only added cost would be the teams that bring an extra wrestler to where they are already going.

Steve, The numbers are what they are. The sport is growing. The top tournaments have awesome crowds. One issue that is hurting our fan participation is the limit of scheduling points imposed by KSHSAA. This has led to the decline of individual duals. They need to add points specifically for duals to bring together the local fans.

I would have to disagree with you as well. I do not have exact numbers, but it seems to me that wrestling numbers have increased in many areas of the state. I have been part of the coaching staff in the Hays Wrestling Club program for about 10yrs, and our numbers have at least doubled in that short time. We have had to buy extra singlets, and gear to accommodate all of our wrestlers (a good problem to have).

As far as your comments about having to give your life to wrestling to be successful. I disagree again. Would we like our kids to wrestle year around? Absolutely, but if they don’t want to we ask them to try to stay active. Football, baseball, track, etc..... an athlete can be successful if he/she puts in the hard work, has a good attitude, and is coachable.

Lance Geyer
Hays Wrestling Club

Chief, I agree with you about the points. Big duels bring in a fan base. And schools should have fun with it (mat lights, smoke and music, ext.) There needs to be set times when the varsity duel begins (no matter if the JV isn't done wrestling. They can finish at the end). And the attendance, I can't speak for the other classes, but I thought 6A &5A State has not been attended well the last 5 years (a lot of empty seats). Was 4A and 3A any better?

Geyer, That is true in regards to the few successful programs in the state, but I'm talking about the High School duels and tournaments. The average schools (in all classes) are having trouble filling teams. Oh, and I can only name on one hand the kids who placed in the last five years who didn't start wrestling until JR. High. You see more new comers in the upper weights, but very, very few other wise.

Speak for yourself! Many of the schools in south central Kansas have as many or more duals as they ever did. In addition, the duals I attend are, more often than not, well attended with enthusiastic crowds.
While attendance at "top tournaments", that's only about 4 tournaments may be up, the attendance at the rest of the tournaments continues to decline. I attribute that decline to two main factors. 1. The thought of youth coaches and parents that their kids need to be wrestling somewhere EVERY Saturday of the season and the further from home the better. In years past, even when kids were wrestling the same day as their high school they often could make it home in time to watch, what should be their mentors, wrestle. If your youth wrestler is wrestling in BFE every Saturday then he isn't going to see much high school wrestling. 2. The first and foremost reason IMO for tournament attendance decline is tournaments are not run in such a manner so as to encourage attendance by fans. How many tournaments receive advance advertising or publicity today? Even if they do, are firm session start times, particularly for the finals, posted or adhered to? With today's computer programs high school tournaments run much more predictably so session times should be publicized and barring weather should be run per that schedule. Also, if you are going to have real time results online don't expect people to show up in greater numbers.
As usual, people are asking KSHAA to force them to do what is best for the sport as a whole. If you want more duals, then simply schedule more duals!