Kansas Wrestling
USA Competitor Cards
Posted By: Cokeley
USA Competitor Cards - 09/01/09 01:16 AM
It is already that time again! Last year's cards have expired and it is time to purchase the 2009/10 USA Wrestling Cards. East Kansas Wrestling Club is ready to purchase cards but we are wondering if the nightmarish process we went through last year is going to be improved? Are we going to join the ranks of the other 95% of the United States and allow online purchase of these cards? I have also heard that fees are going up. How much will competitor's cards be this year?
Mr. Juby, could you provide us with a COMPLETE breakdown of where all of the funds are distributed both from a U.S. perspective and a intrastate perspective?
I would like to propose, if the funds are truly being taken from the states if we use themat.com to purchase them from, that we create a USAWKS.COM PAYPAL account and create a sql database with a internet explorer front end to allow the purchase through OUR web site and then link the database to USA Wrestlings so that NO labor has to be involved.
The delay in getting a card is not good and the difficulty of delivering the card when it takes to long to get a number is not good. We have to email a spreadsheet, mail a check, and then wait. There MUST be a better way.
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/01/09 03:03 PM
Will,
USAW increased the cost of competitor cards, sanctions and charters this year. We will be absorbing the additional charter and sanction fees (at least this year), but will be increasing our competitor cards by $5 to $35.
After some significant discussion, both the corporate board and Kids' Executive Committee decided to continue to process cards at the club level rather than going online. One of the concerns was the additional $5 fee charged for online registrations, particularly since we were already increasing the competitors' cards by an equal amount. It seems like we are always nickel & diming our members, and this was an effort to hold the line somewhat on these additional fees.
Last year was the first time that we had to deal with the spreadsheets and coaching backgrounds checks; hopefully we've moved a little up the learning curve and this year will go a little smoother. I talked to several other states at this year's state leaders' summit to see how they are handling cards. Florida manages an online registration similar to what you had proposed, but they emphasized that it was not as easily done as might be expected. They found that they needed to employ a full time employee who manages their web site, including the registration page. This is in addition to the additional card processing fee of approximately $1 per card. I don't think that most members would believe that these additional costs would be justified, when the only major benefit would be avoiding the slight delay while you wait for your check to arrive at the state office before the cards are issued.
If you are concerned about the delay while you wait for your check to arrive, you could make an advance payment to the state office. With this credit in place, your cards could be processed immediately upon receipt of the spreadsheet. Card numbers could even be emailed to you, if time were of the essence. This would allow you to receive the card numbers on the same day that you requested them. Just an option …
When I make the financial report at this year's state body meeting I'll try to make sure that I cover the detail that you're requesting.
Posted By: sportsfan02
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/01/09 05:00 PM
Something we all need to be asking ourselves and our members between now and the state meeting is, at what point does the cost of doing business with USAW become too high?
Posted By: CJA
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/01/09 11:55 PM
Can someone tell me the difference in AAU rather then USA wrestling.I here there tournaments are just as good if not better and fees are much cheaper then USA.
Posted By: Chief Renegade
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 11:45 AM
AAU cards are $12 and available on-line. Close to $200,000 less than USAW for Kansas.
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 12:10 PM
Mr. Juby,
I see no reason we should not get the figures out to the general membership NOW before we all start buying our cards. The real problem I have with this explanation is that I KNOW you have that information readily available, perhaps even committed to memory, so why would it not be given out. We have a right to know where are money is going. This organization has an obligation to its membership to operate transparently. If an AAU Card is only $12, purchased online, why are USA Cards $23 more? What benefits do we receive from each group? When the cost is almost triple it is past time to start looking into this.
In addition, am I correct to state that only Florida and Kansas make their members purchase their USA cards through their state organization? It seems odd to me that the other 48 states are onboard with online purchasing and NOT controling who gets a coach's card and who gets a competitor's card... I am missing something and I am sure the general membership would love to know too.
Honestly, do you REALLY want me to send you a check in advance knowing that I am going to be buying 50 USA cards? If I do I can expect an email within the day with the USA Card numbers for all of those wrestlers on my spreadsheet? I can do that but PAYPAL and Credit Cards are the most common method of payment for online transactions today so I am not sure why we are stuck in the dark ages of check writing. (And yes, I am aware that credit card companies/banks and Paypal charge a fee for handling transactions.) By the way, the "slight" delay you spoke of turned into weeks for some of the card purchases across the state. Last year cards were purchased through USAWKS and when wrestlers appeared at the Fall Brawl to register their names were not in the USA Card database which forced some to purchase a second card from Missouri because Kansas had no card selling delegation available.
I am sure the majority of these issues only apply to the "hard core" wrestlers as 7,000 may be oblivious to how this is happening and where their money goes but that doesn't make it ok to ignore those of us who are inconvienced and want to know.
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 03:28 PM
Will,
The annual financial report is available on this website (
www.usawks.com/financials08.pdf). A general summary of how the $30 membership fee for the 07/08 year was allocated would be as follows:
- $20.00 - USA Wrestling
- $ 2.50 - Kansas Kids' Division
- $ 3.65 - Kansas Junior/Cadet Divisions
- $ 1.40 - Kansas Women's Division
- $ 1.00 - Kansas Officials' Division
- $ 1.45 - Kansas State Office
These are rough averages, since there are other items of revenue and expenses that go through our organization, but it should give a general picture of where the money is going.
On the question of “why USAW,” I’m going to post an article written by current FILA board member Stan Dziedzic. He does a much better job of making the case for USAW than I could, and I agree with most of his points.
Truly the One Wrestling Organizationby Stan Dziedzic, former USA Wrestling President
There are several organizations that offer access to wrestling opportunities. Each is able to provide tournaments, practices and club activities. Wrestlers, parents and coaches have to choose where and with whom to allocate their resources and devote their time. When you weigh these alternatives there is only one of these organizations that has the depth and unparalleled platform to strengthen our sport at all levels. As a wrestler, coach or fan there is one organization that after review provides opportunities and programs that I am confident will compel you to join. It is the only organization that your membership makes a difference in strengthening our sport in the United States.
What is this 'one organization?’ The answer is very clear. It is USA Wrestling, the National Governing Body for the Sport of Amateur Wrestling in the United States, and the only organization recognized by the U.S. Olympic Committee as the Governing Body for the Sport in America.
What does it mean to be the National Governing Body and recognized by the U.S. Olympic Committee? Please allow me to fill you in on one of the best amateur sports organizations in the World. Then as you contemplate your many choices, I believe you will agree with me that there is only one that is a "must" to be a member.
USA Wrestling offers the wrestling community a comprehensive package for an extremely reasonable price. USA Wrestling:
- Conducts four levels of coaches' education that includes the latest techniques and philosophies in the sport.
- Conducts quality local, Regional and National level events for nine different age groups in four different styles: Folkstyle, Freestyle, Greco-Roman and Women's wrestling.
- Developed the well known "Ultimate Challenge Series of Folkstyle Wrestling" and “Folkstyle Tour of America.”
- Conducts camps and clinics for athletes to enhance their wrestling skills and build strong character.
- Developed TheMat.com to provides coaches and athletes an educational tool that offers in-depth visual aids, both still and live action, demonstrating wrestling technique. The 'live action' wrestling techniques alone are worth the price of membership. This is an invaluable catalog of techniques as used by the best in the world.
- Provides the membership with USA Wrestler, a publication with all the results and highlights of the wrestling season, published six times a year.
- Has contributed financial and human resources to save the sport from extinction by working to change the misinterpretation of Title IX.
- Has the largest and strongest mat and pairings officials association in World.
- Supports real wrestling role models for young athletes to look up to like Cael Sanderson, Rulon Gardner, Henry Cejudo, Kristie Marano and Patricia Miranda.
- Provides many opportunities for female competitors to become involved in the sport and compete in every possible level including the Olympic Games.
- Offers outstanding insurance coverage. The Sports Accident insurance, which is secondary non-duplicating, provides coverage up to $100,000 per benefit period and $1,000,000 lifetime in coverage. A one-time yearly deductible does apply to all covered claims. General liability coverage of $5,000,000 per incident with no general aggregate for club administrators, event directors, volunteers, coaches, state association leaders and officials is included.
- Provides opportunities for young talented athletes to train at the U.S. Olympic Training Center with world class athletes and coaches.
- Provides support for U.S. Olympic-caliber athletes to win medals at Olympic and World Championships. Membership in USA Wrestling assists our elite athletes in providing opportunities and resources to train and prepare under the best conditions possible. This is truly important if wrestling expects to survive and thrive in the new world of sports.
- Sponsors the National Team program in all three styles, including full-time professional National Coaches, as well as direct financial support to athletes.
- Provides an array of educational and promotional videotape materials.
- Provides the wrestling community with access to wrestling information through the nation's best amateur wrestling website, TheMat.com.
- Represents the USA in FILA, the international governing body for the sport wrestling worldwide.
- Works to preserve the history of wrestling with support of the National Wrestling Hall of Fame and various museums across the country.
I hope this introduces the vast array of programs and opportunities USA Wrestling provides its membership and the public. USA Wrestling is doing so much more than any other organization to develop coaches and athletes of all levels, and in all styles. More importantly, USA Wrestling does more than any other organization to build and strengthen the sport of wrestling.
In addition, USA Wrestling has focused on moving wrestling forward in the United States, with plans for the wrestling community to succeed in a flooded and competitive sports market. When you take the time to look at wrestling organizations nationally, ask this simple question, "does every membership dollar directly funnel back to the sport?" Not being a member of USA Wrestling limits the resources that the National Governing Body has to fight issues that threaten our sport.
USA Wrestling focuses on the mission of promoting wrestling at all age levels. The organization does not divide its energies or loyalties with other sports. Coaches like the legendary Dan Gable, John Smith, Bobby Douglas, J Robinson, Tom Brands, Mark Manning and Greg Strobel, just to name a few, are strong supporters and members of USA Wrestling and its programs. Every year, these coaches and many more visible members of the wrestling community work hand in hand with USA Wrestling to build our sport.
John Smith, Olympic and World Champion and the Oklahoma State University Head Coach, recently said of USA Wrestling, "I could not have been an Olympic Champion without, No. 1, an opportunity. USA Wrestling at the state level and at the National level gave me an opportunity to fulfill that dream to be an Olympic Champion."
Dan Gable, Olympic and World Champion and a World and Olympic Coach, said of USA Wrestling: "USA Wrestling is a comprehensive organization that strives to be the best in supporting beginning kids to the elite senior athletes. USA Wrestling is poised to provide the services and offerings necessary for every coach and athlete to be successful in America's oldest and greatest sport!”
USA Wrestling is an organization composed of 49 state associations with grass roots leaders, coaches, officials, volunteers and parents working to provide opportunities and activities for all levels of membership. It is an organization of Olympians, business men and women, coaches, administrators, armed services and those who truly believe in the sport and what it provides its participants. It is an organization that continues to strive to be the best in the world at every level. Whether it be the kids level, elite level, the novice level or the expert level, USA Wrestling's mission is to provide the services and tools necessary for each individual in their own way to be successful in the sport.
USA Wrestling is also a sport of family, bringing every element and person associated with the sport together. The sport of wrestling becomes a way of life. It is an excellent lifetime activity for health and well being for everyone involved. Within USA Wrestling's program structure, young athletes learn perseverance, determination, goal setting and commitment. Athletes and coaches learn self-discipline and self-control. The "family" is also exemplified when people from all across the country gather at regional and national events rekindling friendships that will last for a lifetime. USA Wrestling is committed to its family and strives everyday to build the ever-growing family of members.
Cael Sanderson, 4x NCAA Champion, World Silver Medalist and one of the greatest wrestlers ever, had this to say about the USA Wrestling programs: "For me, it was a great way to learn to wrestle. For our family, we got to spend time together and travel together. It kept us a very close family."
I hope this begins to provide you with a clearer picture of what USA Wrestling is really about. If our sport is to flourish, it is incumbent upon the wrestling community to coalesce our support and resources. I encourage you to join USA Wrestling and become a member of our wrestling family.
Sincerely,
Stan Dziedzic
Posted By: Jarman
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 05:20 PM
What are coaches cards going to cost?
Posted By: usawks1
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 05:40 PM
Coaches cards will remain the same.
Posted By: Jarman
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 05:45 PM
Thanks Randy
Posted By: Namwen
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 05:54 PM
Mr. Juby,
You seem to have explained the reasoning for USAW but what are benefits to AAU vs. USAW?
With the price going up so much I would/could almost bet that clubs have a drop in wrestlers. Might be a small one but, like me for example 3 kids wrestling plus shoes and all of the other items that ours or other clubs do not supply. My boys will wrestle but other parents that have been laid-off around the state or have multiple kids wrestling they might not. It’s almost like USAW is talking out of both sides of their mouths. Trying to save the sport but at the same time making it one of the more expensive at the same time?
Could some one maybe look into the pros-cons AAU and USAW?
Posted By: sportsfan02
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 06:13 PM
Coaches cards will remain the same.
Lets be honest here, coaches cards did in effect go up $17.00 last year due to the background checks. I'm sure the people in Colorado Springs were smart enough to see that if they raised the coaches cards again so soon that they would have a full fledged revolt on their hands.
So in other words, expect coaches cards to go up next year, along with the increases in club and tournament sanctions our Kansas leaders decided not to pass on to us this year. They may blame those future increases on increased cost of background checks or pressure from insurance companies but expect the increase just the same.
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 06:42 PM
Namwen,
Stan Dziedzic’s article was specifically designed to highlight the advantages of USAW over other groups, including AAU. Many of the items that he hit on dealt with the advantages of belonging to an organization that is entirely devoted to wrestling, with all of the funds going towards that end. AAU cannot claim this. He also emphasized USAW’s unique position as the national governing body for wrestling, giving it both the obligation and the opportunity to manage our national teams. AAU cannot claim this. AAU does provide insurance and event sanctions roughly on par with what USAW offers.
Concerning USAW's perceived ambivalence over the affect of card price increases on its members, I would note that USAW has not increased the cost of their competitors’ cards in nine years. During that time period, inflation has eroded the value of the dollar by 20% (based on the CPI as published by the Bureau of Labor Statistics). While all of their costs were being affected by inflation, USAW has held the line on competitor card increases for almost a decade!
Finally, I would emphasize that after the card increase USAW will only collect $21 from each competitor card, with the balance staying in our state to fund our operations. The comparison with an AAU card should begin from that level.
Being a member of USAW for many years >20 I am well aware when I travel nationwide the importance of belonging to USAW and not the intrastate federation's such as National United Wrestling for Youth which "unites" much of the eastern states such as MN, MI; IL; PA; OH; NJ; IN and I'm sure I've left out a few...I do know that their expense is much more than $35. They seem to have a great deal of hidden expenses that adds up.
I'm truly a believer that USAW should be supported by KS. While yes, it does get political within the organization the OTC is one fabulous place and the USAW organization contributes a great deal to advancing wrestling nationally and internationally.
Just my .02
As well -- if your athletic wrestler does win an Olympic Gold Medal he or she will get a check from none other than USAW for $250,000 from the Living the Dream Medal fund created to award stipends to U.S. wrestlers who medal at Worlds and Olympics and can win significant amounts while bringing home the silver or bronze as well.
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/02/09 10:10 PM
It is difficult to get an apples to apples comparison. The intent was not to stimulate a comparision although one must admit that it was inevitable.
What we are going to see now is what we experience every year. Counting coaches there are over 9,000 card buyers in Kansas. The majority of these card buyers don't need what the majority of their funds are going towards. They are merely along for the ride. We are lucky if 5% participate in the international styles which is the true benefit of USA over AAU. USA has FILA Governing body status while AAU does not. $12 or $21 there are funds being spent that really don't benefit the majority of our members. This is, for the most part, impossible for us to control. What we can control is where the other funds are going and I think the majority do not know how those are being utilized either. This stream might educate some of those.
So, Mr. Juby, where is the additional $5 going this year? If we buy our cards online from USA Wrestling are they $21 or $35? I am confused as to why some states would be willing to give up their funds if they could keep them. Further, I am confused why USA would allow Kansas and Florida to keep $14 while all of the other states are forgoing those funds to USA Wrestling. It really doesn't make very much sense. I am just looking for the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Black and white. When it comes to funds there should be NO gray areas. No more tap dancing please...
Posted By: sportsfan02
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 01:50 AM
$12 or $21 there are funds being spent that really don't benefit the majority of our members. This is, for the most part, impossible for us to control.
Well, yes we can control that "part". We can keep those monies in our state and at the very least have that much more to spend on our own kids for anything the executive board or the body deems worthy. Or, we can cut the cost of our cards with the hopes it will create more oportunities for more wrestlers at all levels.
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 11:10 AM
Will,
I finally understand the purpose for your posts. You should have been more direct at the outset – I had truly believed that your concern was over the pricing level of our cards and the utilization of the monies that were collected, whether they were used for state or national purposes.
I can now see that your concern was directed to the use of the additional $5 card fee. I’m going to go out on a limb (although it seems like a pretty strong branch) and guess that you are aware that $2 is going to be paid to Kathy as compensation for her position as state membership director. There was never any effort to hide this fact – all of the board members were clearly informed about it and I was going to make a special point of calling attention to it at our state body meeting when the fee increase and financials were discussed. Here is the reasoning for adding this stipend.
For the past several years, I have had board members recommend that Kathy should be properly compensated for the vast range of duties which the state imposes on her. Most, if not all, of the other states with our types of numbers pay their staff, but I was resistant. I have always been a volunteer for this organization, whether it was when I was club director, district director, Kids’ state director or now that I am state chairman. That may have been unfair to Kathy, who in some ways just got pulled along for the ride, but she was a good sport and went along with it. A few years ago, the board decided to begin paying her 50 cents per card, which wasn’t much based on the number of hours that she works, but it was a nice honorarium nonetheless.
The reason that I relented in my opposition was due to the alternatives available to our state. If we were to go online, all of our members would have been subjected to an additional $5 processing fee (charged by USAW on all online registrations), none of which would have come back to our state. USAW-Kansas is in the unique position as one of only two states not registering coaches online, and one of very few not registering wrestlers online. After experiencing one year of managing the special requirements placed on us as a condition by USAW of this special arrangement, Kathy had found the time commitment to be much more than she was willing to continue with on a largely volunteer basis. Kathy was already spending well in excess of 40 hours/week working on memberships for the bulk of our folkstyle season, both in dealing with club issues and in satisfying the requirements of USAW. Since those calls also tended to come in at all hours of the day, seven days a week, the hours seemed even more onerous.
With the price increases coming from USAW, it didn’t seem to be a good idea to add another $5 per card online fee on top of the other increases. I saw that we could avoid the additional processing fee and finally pay Kathy something close to what her efforts are worth, something that seemed a win-win. Therefore, I proposed the following to our board and Executive Council on the use of the additional $5 card fee for the 2009-10 season:
- Competitor cards in Kansas increase by $5 to $35. This will bring the competitor cards in line with coaches cards, which are already $35. This would result in a $34,800 increase from memberships (retain $4 after $1 to USAW).
- Keep sanction fees and charter fees the same. We will use part of the increase in competitor cards to offset this loss. I don’t want to be throwing multiple price increases on our membership in a single season, and doing this will keep it simple for our clubs – the only price increase they will see is to the competitor cards. This would result in a $2,850 loss on charters (190 clubs) and an $1,830 loss on sanctions (122 events).
- Compensate Kathy $2 per card for continuing to work with the clubs to do memberships offline. This will avoid increasing coaches and competitors by the $5 online fee. This would be a cost of $21,000 for Kathy (8700 competitors & 1800 coaches). This compensation is comparable with what other states of our size and situation are paying their staff.
- Increase the card monies given to the Kids’ Division by $9,000.
I hope this answers your question.
Posted By: sportsfan02
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 01:36 PM
I’m going to go out on a limb (although it seems like a pretty strong branch) and guess that you are aware that $2 is going to be paid to Kathy as compensation for her position as state membership director. There was never any effort to hide this fact – all of the board members were clearly informed about it and I was going to make a special point of calling attention to it at our state body meeting when the fee increase and financials were discussed. Here is the reasoning for adding this stipend.
For the past several years, I have had board members recommend that Kathy should be properly compensated for the vast range of duties which the state imposes on her. Most, if not all, of the other states with our types of numbers pay their staff, but I was resistant. I have always been a volunteer for this organization, whether it was when I was club director, district director, Kids’ state director or now that I am state chairman. That may have been unfair to Kathy, who in some ways just got pulled along for the ride, but she was a good sport and went along with it. A few years ago, the board decided to begin paying her 50 cents per card, which wasn’t much based on the number of hours that she works, but it was a nice honorarium nonetheless.
And she is worth every penny!
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 02:07 PM
Mr. Juby,
You overestimated my knowledge of this topic. I am still confused yet entlightened. I still don't understand how USA Wrestling permits only a few states to do what we are doing and why not all states wouldn't want to do this. Specifically:
How much would an online competitors card cost if purchased online, directly from USA Wrestling?
If Kansans purchased their cards online, like the majority of states, would any of those funds be funneled back to Kansas?
Why is the online fee $5? Where does that money go?
Why is an AAU card only $12 when purchased online if it costs $5 to perform this action?
Why don't other states want to do exactly what we are doing?
Why doesn't USA Wrestling MAKE us do what the majority are doing?
It seems odd to me that other states would voluntarily give up funds and it seems odd to the me that USA Wrestling would voluntarily give up the additional funds they would make if we were to buy our cards online. It doesn't make sense or add up...
Further, I don't think the Executive Board should have the power to decide to pay someone a salary in a volunteer organization. It is a slippery slope you will take us down when EVERYONE decides they need to be paid for their time.
After reading your post I have done some research and I understand that this vote was done via email. Is this accepted by our bylaws? How does the membership know who voted for what? How do we know it was adequately discussed? Why wouldn't this take a vote by the state body? Isn't it a conflict of interest for you to be conducting the vote and discussion to decide whether or not your household was to receive nearly $21,000? That is an annual salary to many of our members and we are paying it out for a data entry and processing job that is part time???
If you paid someone $20 an hour it would take 1,050 hours to get to $21,000. If this job is taking that long then I understand why I was getting my cards more than two weeks after sending my check. It is 2010 and this needs to be online and automated.
As far as disclosure... Mr. Juby you are covering it up. In your post yesterday where you broke down the distribution of the $30 we paid for a membership card last year you DID NOT outline that $.50 per card was being paid to your wife. If you were not covering this up you would have posted the disclosure from the onset and not waiting util it became obvious to you that I had heard a rumor.
I do appreciated everything you and your family have done for Kansas wrestling and I agree with nearly everything you decide upon and support but this one needs to be explained a little further and in more detail. We are talking about $367,500 and that is a tremendous sum.
You are technical enough to know there are much better solutions out there that would make this easier, more efficient, and give your family back all of the hours it is losing. By the state body meeting I could demo a internet accessible front end that would allow all cards to be purchased online and could be linked to USA Wrestling as well as to trackwrestling to save lots of time and effort and deliver a card number instantly to our members. That is where the money should be invested. Put our money in a solution not a bandaid over a symptom.
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 02:21 PM
Will,
You are accusing me of a cover-up. Obviously you are simply going to take anything I say as either a falsehood or self-serving. I've made an honest effort to respond to all of your comments, but I'm done now. You can think what you like, I don't really care. My goal is to do what I think is best for Kansas wrestling, whether it pleases Will Cokeley or not.
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 02:56 PM
Will,
You are accusing me of a cover-up. Obviously you are simply going to take anything I say as either a falsehood or self-serving. I've made an honest effort to respond to all of your comments, but I'm done now. You can think what you like, I don't really care. My goal is to do what I think is best for Kansas wrestling, whether it pleases Will Cokeley or not.
Mr. Juby,
I have done NOTHING but state the facts. I am asking questions to gain a FULL understanding of the situation. YOU jumped to the conclusion of a cover up in your response. EVERYONE wants to know where the money is going not just Will Cokeley. You name one question that I have asked that is not with merit or should not be answered so that EVERYONE knows what is happening.
I have ALWAYS thought you were one of the most ethical and honest people in this organization. I did not accuse you of lieing or creating a cover-up. However, you DID NOT state that you were paying Kathy $.50 per card in your post that outlined where the $30 was being allocated. I simply pointed that out to you. Call it what you want it was NOT disclosed and I am guessing NO ONE in general membership had any idea that she was paid $5,250 last year.
My goal is to do what is best for Kansas wrestling and that has ALWAYS been our common ground. I don't get paid one cent for my time either. I am never going to ask to get paid and if I feel like my time would be better spent elsewhere that is where I will take my time. The FAIR way to handle this position is to have the work bid on not just arbitrarily hand it over to someone. Each district could share in the work so it wouldn't be such a burden. I just think there are better ideas and I think most will agree that this was decided in a very closed off manner. Yet and still Mike there are some VALID questions that need to be answered and I think you might be the ONLY one that can answer them:
How much would an online competitors card cost if purchased online, directly from USA Wrestling?
If Kansans purchased their cards online, like the majority of states, would any of those funds be funneled back to Kansas?
Why is the online fee $5? Where does that money go?
Why is an AAU card only $12 when purchased online if it costs $5 to perform this action?
Why don't other states want to do exactly what we are doing?
Why doesn't USA Wrestling MAKE us do what the majority are doing?
Posted By: Tuff
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 03:04 PM
Mike
I am glad that this has finally come public. I would have to agree with Sportsfan that Kathy is worth every penny. She has bailed me out of a lot of situations that I have gotten my self into, But the simple fact is the position that she is doing with the registrations is more than likely a shot term job. Yes I do understand the amount of money we are saving our membership but can’t see how we can pay a volunteer a salary to do the registrations which will sooner or later be mandatory to do online by USAW.
Please don’t get me wrong if this was the way that we had to do our registrations I would definitely be in favor of compensating someone for this grueling job. But if I understand you right we will at some point have to find a different way to find the funds that we give to all of the different levels in our division. If that is the case I think we should start now not later.
Just my thoughts.
Tuff
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 03:24 PM
Tuff,
I hope you're not suggesting that discussions by our boards are private information and not open to the public. As you should know as well as anyone, I've always been a proponent of making everything that we do as transparent as possible.
The point you are making here is the same one that you made to the corporate board and Executive Council. The counter argument, and one that I voiced, was that moving to online cards this year would result in a $40 card (a $10 increase) because of the additional $5 service charge on online registrations. I don't think this is what our membership would prefer.
You are undoubtedly correct that USAW will ultimately require all memberships to be done online. Personally, I don’t think that is going to happen for at least a couple of years. In the meantime, we are saving our members $5 per card. I think that’s a benefit we should take advantage of, even if it’s only for the next 2-3 years.
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 07:47 PM
Mr. Juby,
And I am calling you that because there are lots of Mikes out there.
You are trying to make me the bad guy here and that is wrong. You had the opportunity to post EVERYTHING immediately after it was decided. In fact, isn't it prudent to post that this season's cards will be $35 before the date they are to go on sale? You show me where I have stepped out of bounds with any question or made any comment, given the facts and lack of public disclosure. It is sad that you "don't care" what the rank and file members of your organization wonder and think.
This year USA Wrestling increased the cost of a competitors card to $21 while coaches remain at $20.
Club registration fee was increased from $40 to $55.
Tournament Sanctions were increased from $25 to $40.
To me it would have been a no brainer to allow those latter two increases to pass on through to our membership. To a club a $15 charter increase would be much less than a $1 per competitor.
The sanction fee is paid when a club operates a tournament as a fundraiser. $15 more dollars is 15 people at the gate for $1 or 15 more $1 raffle tickets or simply an increase in expenses. When clubs are making thousands of dollars from their volunteer efforts the $15 is not going to make a meaningful impact to their bottom line. I would guarantee that not one club would decide to discontinue hosting a tournament over this $15 increase.
This brings us to the USA Cards.
The fact that everyone needs to understand is that a USA Wrestling Card is only $20 for a coach and $21 for a competitor. The additional $15 and $14 go to USA Kansas wrestling. In effect, you are paying for a USA card and a Kansas card but it is delivered as one. Given this, we will pay, based on last year's estimates posted by you, $218,700 for coach and competitor cards to USA wrestling. Kansas will retain $148,800 to use for our programs or to be allocated to whatever. These figures are based upon the use of the present spreadsheet system. One where clubs complete a spreadsheet, email them to Kathy, Kathy reviews them and assigns card numbers, and then uploads this data from Excel into the USA Wrestling database.
All states add on to the cost of the USA card an amount determined by their state organization. The overwhelming majority of states use themat.com to sell their cards online. USA wrestling tags on a $5 charge (this in effect makes their cards $26) for using the online system. These funds are used to absorb the credit card fee and cover the costs of other USA programs.
So, our cards could be as low as $26 if sold online without any Kansas dues being tacked on. If you back out the $2 you are recommending/and have gotten approved then the impact to have online cards would only be $3.
The majority of states and eventually all states will be REQUIRED to eat the $5 online fee and use themat.com to purchase cards through.
This is what I was able to discover from other leaders.
The bottom line, we could have raised the sanction fees and charter fees with little impact to the individuals. Subsequently we could have made the cards $31 and continue as we did last year or $36 and allowed online purchasing without all of the crazy accounting.
This will all roll back to: why do we pay $7000 for a bus to Fargo, why do we give $3000 to this camp, $10,000 to that group, etc... We have not, as an organization, been prudent about cutting costs and programs. Our spending goes up and the "tax" methods we choose can be questioned. We could make more money off of tournaments where our membership is getting a product instead of raising card prices that basically tax everyone not just those who are getting something for their dollars.
USA Kansas wrestling's strength has always come from the rank and file because we are a volunteer organization. I hate to see it start to become "I do this so I need to get paid." organization. If it does, it will not be around very much longer.
I am writing all of this because I DO CARE and I want this organization to outlast both of us.
Posted By: RichardDSalyer
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/03/09 11:34 PM
As a member of the Corporate Board I voted in favor of the $5.00 Competitors Card increase and stated I believed our Membership Director, based on the number of hours committed to ensuring our members received their respective cards in a timely manner, was underpaid for the position.
Posted By: doug747
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 12:49 AM
Richard, why didn't you take a cut of the money you recovered for District 2 a few years back? I know you spent a ton of time that noone else was willing to spend, to make things right. I've always admired you for what you did there.
I'm not going to sit here and volunteer to do Kathy's job for nothing, but Will raises valid points about the volunteer basis of our organization. If someone else did it for free, would we run the risk of getting what we pay for? Possibly. I just wonder what kind of luck you'll have when you start asking for volunteers for running the state tourney, when others get paid, or get expenses paid, to "volunteer" at a state sponsored event like Kids' State. You'll hear a cry of hypocrisy at some point.
I do like the idea of online registration. What with Trackwrestling, online registration in Oklahoma series tourneys, Roller tourneys, why don't we get current with the times? I see some tie in with Trackwrestling as a way to purchase USA cards. Then that wrestler's info is in the trackwrestling system and the USA wrestling system, and it would make it easier to enter them in tourneys as well. (except for our end of year qualifying tourneys, which for some reason we aren't allowed to use the "wrestler number" that Trackwrestling assigns each kid)
I'm not tech guy, but all of the duplication of data entry is ridiculous, when we have the means to do it once at the beginning of the year, and then only need to type in that wrestler number and weight class to enter kids in tourneys from there on out. The USA cards could surely be made a part of this, and Trackwrestling only charges $.50 per entry!!!
My two cents worth. Maybe someone smarter than me can comment on tying our USA registration and trackwrestling registration together.
Doug
Posted By: tbau
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 01:03 AM
I also like the idea of online registration. So what if it costs $5 a card more. If we went to online registration wouldn't that considerably reduce Kathy's workload. If it did would we still pay her $2 a card. If we didn't pay her then it would only be a $3 increase. The way we do registration now is ridiculous, why not join modern times? It's time usa wrestling kansas actually talked to their membership instead of just assuming what they want. But hey if we went online then the Juby's would take a $21,000 hit in their bank account, so lets do it the old way as long as possible, maybe mike wants to buy a boat.
I would do it for $1.75 a card, if this is a paid position why not put it for bid.
Posted By: John Johnson
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 01:54 AM
There are a number of important issues being raised in this thread. However, lets start with what I thought was the purpose of this threa - how do I get a card for my son for the Fall Brawl without giving Missouri any money. Last year I had to buy my card in Missouri. This really bothered me. I grew up on the Missouri/KU border and I hate Missouri. Now Will said if I had just called him he would have gotten my son a card. But, why is it Will's job to get all the Kansas kids, who's clubs are not up and running that early in the year, a card so they can compete in early tournaments. Its alot of work, and he doesn't charge extra. Sorry for the tacky comment, but we need a system to allow the early starters an opportunity to buy cards in September. Last year I contacted Kathy about this, and was told not possible, I had to go thru a club. This, and the old policy on coach's passes, has resulted in people chartering clubs just for their own kid and a few friends.
Doug makes a good point, what about a tie-in with track wrestling.
Second, the issue of paying someone a salary. Yes, that is what it appears to me. Now I know she is working hard. I was the secretary/treasurer of my local union for a number of years and know the extra time you put in. We got a small amount each month to cover out of pocket expenses. That was it. If you go over that you start running into regulations involving with-holding for Social Security and other taxes. Not knowing how much work Kathy does, I am in no position to judge if the $2 a card is appropriate or not. But, I hope the state body has covered itself in regards to any tax obligations we may have assumed by doing this.
Third, I have read all of Will's posts on this, I think he is just asking reasonable questions. They have been somewhat answered, but not completely. Maybe a full posting of the monthly expenditures would help. At least they should go to the club presidents.
Finally, from my limited viewpoint - as just the father of a kid who wrestles - I think USA Kansas Wrestling does a good job. I do not want to see a whole lot of changes. But, we have to be careful - we will make this sport so expensive to get started in that alot of people will stop trying it. We will begin limiting our growth just by cost. We want High School kids to stay out for our state series - well $35 for a card, then club fees, for what, 4 tournaments at most(assuming they only do in state tournaments). A lot are not going to do it. TOO expensive. However, we need the state to make money and help cover the costs of things like Middle School Duals and the freestyle duals, or only certain kids will be able to go. This requires a balancing act, that does not allow for a lot of perks for our board. Its about the kids!!!
Richard, you voted for the increase - due to someone being under paid - what club coach or official isn't. That is why its called being a volunteer.
Will's last post really hit it, thats alot of money - $148,000 - should be enough to do it all without alot of increases.
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 02:41 AM
Despite insinuations by Will Cokeley that we were trying to do something underhanded, I have always intended on providing information on the increase and the reasons for this increase in the club packets (which we had already prepared). The district directors, who have been involved in this decision and are aware of the issues, would be able to carry out discussions at their district meetings. Then, at the state body meeting, I would respond to any concerns or questions from any member. This procedure has worked well for us in the past, and I expected it to do so again.
While I believe this forum to be an invaluable asset for our state and our sport, I do not believe it works well for making decisions on matters like this. It is difficult to really ascertain whether comments are coming from a vocal minority or truly represent the will of our members.
Having said that, when I saw that Will had requested information on the use of our funds, I believed it appropriate and important to attempt to answer his request. His request for a COMPLETE (his emphasis) breakdown was unreasonable due to the large number of transactions that our state office processes in a single year (out of curiosity I just checked Quickbooks and found that there were 3970 transactions last year). However, I did my best to provide answers to what I thought he was asking. It was only after he questioned my integrity that I decided to desist from any further attempt to respond to his posts.
If these posts truly represent the will of the general membership, I would not oppose having the board revisit our decision. However, I would first question the underlying assumption being made: that our nonprofit organization does not pay for services. Is this true for the officials that we use every week at our tournaments? Is this true for the coaches that work at our camps in the summer? Clearly, we have certain jobs where it is not deemed appropriate or feasible to expect volunteers to do all the work for nothing.
Nationwide, most states with any significant membership have a paid staff person(s) handling these duties. Before the board considered this proposal, I checked with other states and found that the stipend we were considering for Kathy was on par with those states. Furthermore, it seemed like a slam dunk to spend $2, for which Kathy does much more than just process cards, instead of spending $5, for which we don’t get anything else.
If there are specific questions that you have, ask them and I will try to get an answer posted.
Posted By: tbau
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 02:50 AM
mike,
I dont think you should have a vote on this issue. It is a conflict of interest. I still think we should go to online registration, maybe let the clubs vote on this at the state body meeting. I have been to the last five or six state meetings and the membership was never informed that Kathy was getting 50 cents a card, where was this info at in the financial report. Now in this economy the state board voted to increase her stipend by 75%. I am sure there are a lot of qualified unemployed or underemployed data entry clerks that would do this job for less. Maybe it's time we hired an outside source to do an independant audit of usawks books to make sure everything is kosher. With that being said I hope you and Kathy enjoy your $15,000 raise this year I am sure it will help out with the new house.
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 03:14 AM
Despite insinuations by Will Cokeley that we were trying to do something underhanded,
This isn't about me. Quit trying to make it so. I made no decisions, I didn't get to vote, I didn't even know the facts, I just heard a rumor and given that cards SHOULD go on sale on September 1 it was timely and pertinent to find out what was going on. You put yourself in this position. I asked questions and received VAGUE answers. You are now attempting to discredit my attempt to give transparency and clarity by saying "this is how we have always done it..." We have NEVER paid a member of our organization other than an officials and some coaches. MOST coaches do their jobs for free. The card process is MUCH easier now that the clubs have to prepare the information in a spreadsheet so why the move to pay now? Why not put it up for bid or ask if others want to help out? The discussion was rushed, from the accounts I have been able to gather, and not complete. You would have to officiate nearly 150 tournaments or every weekend for 10 years to earn $21,000. I have done NOTHING wrong here but try to give this topic the exposure it needed. The state body meeting is too late. It was important enough to be addressed through an informal, online meeting that I am still uncertain as to whether it is approved by the corporate board's bylaws, then why wouldn't you email every club director and post it on the home page if you didn't want it in the talk forum.
Posted By: tbau
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 03:25 AM
Mike,
I will state again that i will handle registrations for $1.75 a card that would be a savings of $2625. Why not put this up for bid instead of just handing it to your wife. I know a lot of people that would do this for less than $21,000 a season. This smells of a coverup and yes your integrity is being called into question. No one was informed last year that your wife was making 50 cents for each card she processed. This was not discussed at the state meeting last year and I cannot find it in last years financial report. If Will had not brought this up would you have covered up the $2 fee this year? It is time to get the state books audited by an outside source,The membership has the right to know where every penny is going and apparantly you are not telling us.
Tom Baughman
Posted By: CBR's Dad
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 05:38 AM
I would like to see this post during the wrestling season so everyone is aware of this discussion. After reading both sides of the post I certainly have questions about where or who our money is going to and also why Kansas isn't wiling to move to a faster online registration. This allocation of funds to a spouse, relative, or household member of someone who is directly in charge (or has a vote)is a gross case of conflict of interest which could cause major legal problems if someone wanted to cause some problems. I spend alot of time coaching for free beacuse I love the sport. Maybe I should drive up the cost of my club so I can get paid too. No harm intended, just an example.
Posted By: smokeycabin
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 09:06 AM
Let's keep the discussion constructive! A lot of people put in
many many hours, club level, state level, and national level.
Just follow in someone elses foot steps to see what they are do
every day and night. I think Kansas has a GREAT State organization and they have improved every year since 1991. That is 18 years that I have seen many of the same faces working for your kids and my kids. Believe it or not - the NATIONAL MANDATORY COACHES background checks has increased the work load on our state folks and every state organization. I think that is a bigger time consumer per club than the cards. Hundreds of calls if not thousands of calls for new and old coaches - ONLY going into 1 or 2 people. The National background check firm wasn't prepared to answer questions - maybe they are now. Before everyone starts getting on each other - lets find a solution. I know I do not have an extra 20-40 free hours in a week to make a hundred calls, e-mails, answering coaches, club directors questions, upset parents and all the other various concerns. I'll make suggestion - start the volunteer list now. Who wants to handle every question and deal with the process just about the back ground checks. Please provide home phone, cell phone, work phone, e-mail, mailing address (must be available 24/7). Be prepared because I'll send 10-15 new coaches from STA Club asking you many many questions while playing phone tag, e-mail back and forth, etc. The information on background checks was available in print but tricky maze to get through it. I think it will be the same problem this year. Some people can not and will not read and follow the directions - that makes it ten times as hard to get the background check done. I follow up later - I need to let dog out.
Posted By: smokeycabin
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 09:24 AM
I am back - Cross me off the volunteer list for Assistant Background Check Informant (ABCI). If I did have the ABCI job
(which I will not) - and people kept ripping on me with no solution I would seriously have problem actually helping those first. You might want to think about that - that is the way the world works. "You scratch my back - I'll scratch yours"
I would not respond on this forum to you either if I was the ABCI
helper person. I could not write what I was thinking on here either. Let's get along and work in the same direction. Got 2 go (G2G) dogs at the door again. That is right I said dogs as in 2 dogs - new puppy this year. Dogs will be twice as much work - so less free time to be the ABCI guy. Private message me if you have tons of free time I'll start a file and find something for you to do.
Coach Sean
Posted By: sportsfan02
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 12:34 PM
While I believe this forum to be an invaluable asset for our state and our sport, I do not believe it works well for making decisions on matters like this. It is difficult to really ascertain whether comments are coming from a vocal minority or truly represent the will of our members.
Mike, you are absolutely right and this is not representative of the masses and is as you suggest, the "vocal minority". Those of us who have been with this organization for any length of time and routinely show up for the state meetings know the hours required at the excecutive level, and are glad to have someone like Kathy to do it. I know of no "volunteer" organization that doesn't have paid individuals doing the paperwork at the top. After all, are those people working in Colorado Springs doing it for nothing?
If these posts truly represent the will of the general membership, I would not oppose having the board revisit our decision.
Mike I would suggest that this matter be left to discussions at the district and state meetings and thus each district can decide how much time they want to spend on it. Your first instinct when being called in effect dishonest, was the correct one. While difficult to let some of this name calling pass, it is often the best policy.
Posted By: JCook
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 03:05 PM
In tuff times, when most companies are not giving raises and even laying people off. Why are we given a raise to a volunteer? Just a thought!
James Cook
Posted By: smokeycabin
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/04/09 08:41 PM
USA Kansas Wrestling is a Non-Profit organization 501-c something. USA Wrestling national is a non-profit organization, churchs are non profit organizations the NCAA is a non profit organization and they all have employees, many non-profits have thousands of volunteers, the American Red Cross is a nonprofit and each state has redcross offices with some paid employees. Somebody has to run these organizations and fill out tons of paper work to have the non-profit status. Every penny has to be counted. I have been a treasurer for a nonprofit that had 4 employees and a 30 person board - talk about a lot of bosses for 4 people doing the work. I am done with my comments on this. If you do not like what is going on - put your name in the hat and volunteer your time.
Posted By: BLT
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/05/09 02:55 AM
I think this is just more proof of why we need some changes at the top!
We need to move this program forward. I think the online registration, the non transpairency of monies, the fact that we continue to not look for a better place to hold our state tournament are all examples of us not trying to better ourselves.
Wasn't there even a post that talked about board members receiving gifts from the Topeka COC before the state vote.
This is a great state for wrestling. let's clean up a few messes and move forward!
Posted By: RichardDSalyer
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/05/09 05:27 PM
I think this is just more proof of why we need some changes at the top!
Mr. Tracy:
I am not at the top however I am an elected officer of USAW Kansas Kids, Inc. and also serve on the Corporate Board. I will address several of your concerns.
I think the online registration, ... ,are all examples of us not trying to better ourselves.
Online registration will arrive in the future. USAW Kansas has an additional $5.00 per card surcharge in order to fund our other programs. The other programs include scholarship monies provided to the collegiate wrestling programs in the state, the womens program, the olympic wrestlng styles, etc.
I think, ... , the non transpairency of monies, ... ,are all examples of us not trying to better ourselves.
At the annual meeting a financial statement for USA Kansas Wrestling and the Kids Division are included in the club packet provided to each club director. The financial statements are also available on the website.
USAW Kansas Kids
Profit and Loss
Fiscal Year Ending - 8/31/2008
Income
Entry Fees - $51,877.52
Camp Fees - $18,749.00
Certification Fees - $984.00
Gate Receipts - $26,468.13
Affiliate Programs -
Rebates - $1,830.00
Program Sales - $2,849.95
Dues - $3,430.00
Advertising - $1,607.50
Merchandise Sales - $1,879.45
Clocks -
Concessions - $4,992.50
Interest Income - $1,475.96
Contribution Income - $8,753.61
Total Income - $124,897.62
USAW Fees Paid -
Cost of Merchandise Sold - $6,167.80
Total Cost of Goods Sold - $6,167.80
Gross Profit - $118,729.82
Expenses
Meals - ($7,834.90)
Lodging - ($18,277.18)
Travel - ($7,433.84)
Rent - ($19,150.00)
Wrestlers' Gear - ($9,039.56)
Shirts and Other Gear - ($4,118.15)
Coaches - ($3,750.00)
Officials - ($9,700.00)
Tournament Expense - ($478.00)
Awards - ($8,975.00)
Entry Fees Paid - ($14,210.00)
Sanction Fees Paid -
Membership Fees - ($900.00)
Licenses -
Clinics / Tapes - ($4,990.00)
Printing and Copies - ($8,595.02)
Insurance -
Supplies - ($3,202.66)
Equipment -
Postage - ($961.90)
Telephone -
Meetings - ($1,831.33)
Promotions -
Rulesbooks - ($1,125.00)
Internet -
Contract Labor -
Bank Fees - ($108.60)
Miscellaneous - $179.55
Grants and Scholarships - ($18,874.00)
Total Expenses - ($143,375.59)
Net Income - ($24,645.77)
Fiscal Year Ending - 8/31/2007
Income
Entry Fees - $34,570.00
Camp Fees -
Certification Fees - $886.00
Gate Receipts - $31,341.47
Affiliate Programs -
Rebates - $2,946.00
Program Sales - $4,459.01
Dues - $7,190.00
Advertising - $1,940.00
Merchandise Sales - $1,373.50
Clocks -
Concessions - $12,631.49
Interest Income - $989.13
Contribution Income - $4,084.30
Total Income - $102,410.90
USAW Fees Paid -
Cost of Merchandise Sold - $813.65
Total Cost of Goods Sold - $813.65
Gross Profit - $101,597.25
Expenses
Meals - ($2,077.17)
Lodging - ($5,843.16)
Travel - ($5,335.61)
Rent - ($17,995.00)
Wrestlers' Gear - ($3,336.00)
Shirts and Other Gear - ($2,417.00)
Coaches - ($1,800.00)
Officials - ($9,270.00)
Tournament Expense - ($13,121.46)
Awards - ($10,012.93)
Entry Fees Paid - ($1,000.00)
Sanction Fees Paid - ($70.00)
Membership Fees - $0.00
Licenses -
Clinics / Tapes - ($2,525.00)
Printing and Copies - ($9,424.00)
Insurance -
Supplies - ($321.95)
Equipment - ($187.13)
Postage - ($860.18)
Telephone -
Meetings - ($1,877.05)
Promotions - ($156.25)
Rulesbooks - ($1,100.00)
Internet -
Contract Labor - ($3,899.00)
Bank Fees - ($49.54)
Miscellaneous - $440.13
Grants and Scholarships - ($7,500.00)
Total Expenses - ($99,738.30)
Net Income - $1,858.95
I think, ... ,the fact that we continue to not look for a better place to hold our state tournament, ... ,are all examples of us not trying to better ourselves.
Last year the Executive Council did review bids from Hays, Topeka, and Wichita as host's for the Kids State Tournament. The Hays proposal was eliminated do to size of their arena. The Topeka proposal was selected as it was $15,000 cheaper than the Wichita proposal.
Wasn't there even a post that talked about board members receiving gifts from the Topeka COC before the state vote.
There was some type of gift provided by the Topeka contingent however I do not know the value of the gift as I DID not receive one.
Should you or any other member have any questions please feel free to contact me at:
RichardDSalyer@sbcglobal.net or (316) 541-2764
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/06/09 01:26 PM
Richard,
We appreciate your contribution to this discussion; however, do you honestly feel this is enough detail to allow anyone to understand whether or not we are spending funds unneccesarily?
For example: Lodging from 07 to 08 increased from $5,843 to $18,277. Nearly triple. Why?
Officals: What are we paying $9,700 for? Officiating and if so what?
Entry fees: $14,210... to what?
Contract Labor is $0... Will we find $5000 plus paid to Kathy Juby noted in the 2009 fincial statement? Are we having to cover FICA for her, unemployment, and other fees associated with paying and withholding for an employee who is paid more than $600 or are we exempt from such?
If nothing else, these tough times will stimulate more scrutiny and questioning. Everyone needs to be comfortable with full disclosure.
Posted By: BLT
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/06/09 02:21 PM
Richard,
First off, Thank You for posting my name. If I am going to be critical of others and things then I should post my name and I forgot to do that so, again, Thank You!.
Next, I see no where in that statement where we listed salaries or bonuses.
I also saw coaches for like $3500???
Next I understand that Topeka was a $15000 savings for USAWKS.
But is your position to do what is best for USAWKS Inc or its membership? Because sometimes that is not the samething!
A majority of KS WRESTLERS have been traveling to Topeka for years and in my opinion if the state event was in Wichita then the majority of USAWKS members as a whole would save a lot more then $15000.
Just My Opinion!
Lance Tracy
Posted By: John Johnson
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/06/09 07:06 PM
Fighting about the Topeka issue makes no sense - they saved $15,000. No brainer. Yes, I understand someone has to travel - you cannot make everyone happy. Same thing with Southern Plains in Hayes, along way for me, but we still go.
However, travel, meals and lodging have increased significantly. From about $13,000 to over $33,000???
Posted By: BLT
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/06/09 07:24 PM
Are these people there for usawks INC. or for its membership.
Yes, I understand tou can't make everyone happy but having it in Wichita would make much more sense for the majority.
I know its like beating a dead horse but its just another example of what needs to be done to improve our organization.
Then you hear of people excepting gifts and getting paid for volunteer work... are you serious?
Wow
If we want to pay people then let's make them an employee and tell everyone what we are doing. I think the lady is probably UNDER PAID. But that don't matter when its being done in the shadows!
Posted By: Mike Juby
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/06/09 08:50 PM
Lance,
Richard Salyer posted an abbreviated version of our financial report. As he said, this financial report is presented to all of the clubs at each years' state body meeting and members are walked through the numbers and encouraged to ask any questions. I then post the financials on the website - you can pull up last year's report by clicking on the "General Info" link at the left and going to the "Other" section.
Included in the financial report, under the section "Office" is $5,663 for contract labor. Of this amount, $592 was for legal fees paid in an unsuccessful attempt to obtain a group exemption for our clubs from the IRS (an item that was discussed in detail at the last two state body meetings). The remaining amount was paid to Kathy for her work for USAW-Kansas. Kathy did receive a form 1099 at the end of the year, as did anyone else who received more than $600 in compensation during the year.
Although you may not have been aware of the payments to Kathy, I would also suggest that there are many other things being done by our state that you and many others may not be aware of. I don't think this is because anyone is trying to hide anything, but simply because most people are selective about the issues they are willing to take the time to become fully educated about. This is the purpose of the selection of officers and directors. It was these representative were the ones who originally made the decision to begin compensating Kathy for her work. If you do not believe that your representatives are doing their job, then you should seek to get new people in their place.
If your complaint is with me specifically, I am elected directly by the officers of USAW-Kansas, Inc. Most of these officers come from elections at the district and state body meetings, so that's the place to start. I genuinely believe that I have been instrumental in helping make Kansas a great place for wrestling, in large part by doing everything I can to facilitate the great volunteers that we have throughout our state. I would not continue to hold this position if I didn’t believe this, and would hope that your representatives would not keep me in office if they thought differently.
Currently, I believe that we have a diversified group of people serving as directors and officers of our organization who are all deeply interested in doing what's best for wrestling in Kansas. You may not agree with them; heck, most of the time they don't agree with each other, but it would be wrong to believe that they are not as enthusiastic about USAW-Kansas and its members as you or anyone else.
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/07/09 03:01 AM
Mr. Juby,
When you ascend to the level you have there is NO doubt that you have accomplished much and are very passionate about what you are doing. I have stated for the last few years that the group of you have done a great job but it there comes a time when status quo leads to too much comfort. The personalities are find a way to mesh and any outsiders are outcasts. Decisions are made because there becomes too much trust and a failure to pay attention to perception. This post has caught the eye of far more than the "vocal minority". I have NOT asked for your head on a platter and I DID NOT accuse you of a "cover up" but the "appearance" or "perception" you inadvertently created will leave a bad taste in the silent majority's mouth as well. You are the "Godfather" of Kansas wrestling and you know as well as I do that your advice is sought on issues and problems that are outside of your scope of responsibility. You are the "go to" guy because of your passion, your level head, your experience, and your commitment. I personally do not think you would do anything with the intent to damage our sport, organization or your good name. That said, you must admit that when you are the "top gun" and your wife is being paid without explicit disclosure it creates an awkward appearance. Many, many have called and asked me how they could get Kathy's job. Not a joke!
I really just wanted to buy some cards when this all began but even some of those who voted "YES" were uncomfortable with the way the decision was made. The comfort that the "board" has grown to operate under led to a hasty discussion and a lack of a full understanding of the issues and accounting. (I would still like to know if a email meeting and email vote is an accepted procedure in our bylaws).
A radical departure from the USA increases should/could have been explained on the home page of this site. YOU could have prevented all of this.
You once told me of a decision you made that you made in the best interest of a wrestling opportunity for a youth that you have been conflicted by because you hadn't thought through all of the consequences. It happens, but it especially happens when an individual thinks they don't need to listen to everyone who might have ideas or input before coming to a conclusion. In the past two years you have made two such decisions regarding the eligibility of two Kansas youths. In my opinion the best interest of the two wrestlers nor the best of our organization were protected by your decisions and actions. Conveniently neither of these topics has ever surfaced on here. I don't think our membership is comfortable with the lack of detail and transparency.
I think term limits and fresh minds on the board are needed so this "comfort" which has lead to hasty decisions with no checks and balances will no longer be commonplace.
Given that you have a fear that this topic is NOT reaching the majority, I will help you out with that.
Posted By: hotrodder54
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/08/09 05:26 PM
If I remember correctly I was told last year that Kansas is the only state in the USA wrestling org. That was not Required to purchase cards online. And I was told that the only reasons for this was to stop people who maybe should not have cards from getting them. coaches/parents not wrestlers. So if I lived in missouri or anywhere but Kansas I could just go online and purchase my cards and they would already be on the way. Instead I have to watch this post and see whats going to happen. And when we figure it out I have to make darn certain on my spead sheets that all the correct boxes are checked t's crossed i's dotted (god forbid if you are not a computer savy user you forget something). All to get cards and don't forget up the fee's so we can pay someone to process them, which I admit is a crappy difficult job. Can't we eliminate all this by going online to themat.com and buying them like everyone else in the country.
Posted By: Beeson
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/08/09 07:12 PM
I have been watching this post for a little while now. It seems to me that there are two reasons that we are still having to go through the state to purchase our cards. 1) To save $5.00 a card by not purchasing on the internet. 2) To make sure that not everyone can purchase a coaches card.
If $2.00 of every card is now going to an administrator, we will make $20,000 (if the figures previously stated are correct) by going online. Also if it is inevitable that we will be forced to the internet in the next 2-3 years, Why not now?
As far as making sure not everyone that wants a card can get one, does it really matter? At the state tournament you will need to have a USA card AND be on the coaches list provided by your club. Everyone who completes a Bronze clinic can purchase a card, that doesn't mean they can get on the floor at state.
I have to agree that it is time to allow those who want to, to be allowed access to purchase their cards online. If nothing else the option should be made available.
Posted By: Ben Dover
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/08/09 08:41 PM
When they invented the automobile I am sure a few people resisted the change, and kept riding their horses. But eventually the convenience factor won out, and you don’t see to many horses on the roads these days.
The ease and convenience of the Internet will eventually be the way to go but I guess we will keep riding our horse, so we can save a few dollars on gas?
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/08/09 09:38 PM
3.5.3 Notice of a meeting of the Board of Directors shall be sent to each Board Member in writing by the State Chairman by mail or emailat least thirty (30) days in advance of the annual meeting and at least fifteen (15) days in advance of a special meeting.
3.5.4 Business may be conducted by the Board of Directors via email, provided that votes are received from at least 75% of all members. The annual meeting will not be conducted via email.
3.5.5 Meetings of the Board of Directors shall be open to the public unless the Board of Directors votes to meet in executive session. Executive session voting is prohibited.
This excerpt from the Corporate Board bylaws indicates that a meeting conducted by email is compliant; however, how would all of the members know if 75% were participating unless they were all mandated to utilize reply all? How would anyone know what the vote was unless they hit reply all?
Also, bylaw 3.5.3 states that 15 days notice must be given for a special meeting. Did 75% of the Corporate Board receive 15 days notice? Maybe these actions and votes are null and void?
Posted By: luellen
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/08/09 09:52 PM
Richard,
We appreciate your contribution to this discussion; however, do you honestly feel this is enough detail to allow anyone to understand whether or not we are spending funds unneccesarily?
For example: Lodging from 07 to 08 increased from $5,843 to $18,277. Nearly triple. Why?
Officals: What are we paying $9,700 for? Officiating and if so what?
Entry fees: $14,210... to what?
Contract Labor is $0... Will we find $5000 plus paid to Kathy Juby noted in the 2009 fincial statement? Are we having to cover FICA for her, unemployment, and other fees associated with paying and withholding for an employee who is paid more than $600 or are we exempt from such?
If nothing else, these tough times will stimulate more scrutiny and questioning. Everyone needs to be comfortable with full disclosure.
fair questions with no answer. Maybe no answer answers your question.
Posted By: doug747
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/09/09 02:04 PM
I just want to add that just because another "non profit" does it a certain way, that does NOT justify USAWKS doing it that way as well. If USAWKS has done it one way forever, which is all volunteer, any change to that should be brought before the membership.
I think that the overall decline in charitable giving to these "non profits" charities can be attributed not only to the economy, but also to the fact that people, including me, think that too much of what they give goes to salaries, instead of directly to the "need".
My two cents worth
Doug
Posted By: usawks1
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/09/09 06:29 PM
A fact that needs to be considered ... is that USA Wrestling did not decide to raise their until August 20th (or so) of 2009. As new cards became available of September 1, 2009; the time frame was definitely compressed.
I have a question. If we switch to the online purchasing, does that mean that the state of Kansas will not get the $10.00 from the competitor cards anymore or is it that they just have to wait on getting it from USA Wrestling? If Kansas still receives the $10.00 then I say we should go ahead and go online. I can't imagine why anyone would want to deal with all of the headaches of processing the cards if they didn't have to. As for raising the cost of the card I think Will's calculations of just adding the $1.00 increase plus the online fee of $5.00 which makes the cards only $36.00 makes more sense than raising the fee to $35.00 and going through the same time consuming process as in previous years. I also agree that the clubs could and should pick up the additional fees to charter and sanction their tournaments rather than the state taking a hit on this.
Cheryle Seaton
Posted By: Cokeley
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/11/09 08:08 PM
USA Wrestling will keep $5 for online processing and then cut a check to USAWKS each month for the fees charged above their $21.
I have been told that the contract which charges USA Wrestling $5 per card for nline processing expires after this year and that this fee will likely drop to $2 or $3.
Posted By: wrestlingmom
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/12/09 02:16 PM
Is it too late to begin online card purchase if the clubs all agree that is the way we want to go this year? Can this be voted on at the State meeting?
As a club president, not having to order wrestling cards for each competitor will save me a LOT of time and headaches. Making everybody purchase their own and showing me a new card before they begin practice would be ideal.
Posted By: Ben Dover
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/13/09 01:57 PM
It’s great to hear the opinions of the people that deal directly with the hassle of processing their clubs cards. Cheryle Seatons’ and Sharon Henes’s opinions should not be ignored. Their time is valuable , and if the online purchasing of cards will ease the time consuming hassle of all of these volunteers it should be done.
Posted By: doug747
Re: USA Competitor Cards - 09/14/09 02:21 PM
That is the other thing that is not being considered. All of the club folks that still have to deal with sending requests to the state, that are not getting paid anything. If each kid got their own USA card, online, they just need to hand us a copy of it and we stick it in the folder and we're done with it. DOn't have to collect the money, fill out the spreadsheet, pass out the cards, get the little attachement card signed by parent and wrestler, etc. etc. $5 sounds cheap for that and us not having to pay someone from our state to do anything.
My two cents worth.
Doug