I may catch a little heat here, but according to the National Rule Federation rule book, which Kansas adopted, with Kansas modifications, which USAWKS adopted with KSHSAA modifications, again with their own modification, but no where in the USAWKS modifications does it say how many times a coach may question a judgement call without penalty...?

Maybe we need to address this issue just as it is spelled out in the rule book and as it stands now. How many interruptions are we going to withstand before it becomes a nuissance and hinder the progress of the match(es)? We really need to address this issue as it seems from past experiences kid's club coaches have no worry about how many times they question a call as there are no consequences for the actions. Do we need to implement a set of specific USAWKS rules regarding this or will it go on unregulated?

After reading this article, http://matref0.tripod.com/Articles/CMC_and_USC.pdf , I began to wonder, is this something we need to do as a State? How much time do we waste explaining to coaches that it is a judgement call and will not be overturned no matter how much arguing is done?

I know this is something that is part of our sport and will always be but at some point we need to move forward in the name of progress and I believe this is an area where we can go forward and make some immediate positive changes.

Alex R. Ryan

If you want that from coaches how can officials not be held to the same standard. I am referring to language/background checks etc...

I would say you can't hold coaches to this until you elevate the quality of refs in our state. Not to say that there are not some excellent ones (I ment a new one this weekend! Van Kuhn!) but I think that too many refs hide behind the "Its a judgement call" excuse.
They make very bad calls and when a good coach passionately calls them out on it their pride gets in the way and they scream "Its a judgement call! AND NO, I won't call the head ref over here so get back in your corner coach and shut up or your GONE!"

If you all would of had ref #'s on your pretty new shirts this weekend I could tell you who sad that.

Don't blame coaches for standing up to a lack of quality refs!
JMO!

No I completely agree, we should be held to the same standard. We as officials must admit our mistakes and acknowledge that we are not perfect. I myself actually reversed a call when a coach questioned a misapplication of the rules by myself and I was found by the head official that was I was wrong, I then reversed the call and continued the match. As much as I wanted to act like I was correct I was wrong, thank you Mr. Johnson for that.

I also understand that not all kid's officials are veterans (I am not one myself) and mistakes will happen, but instead of getting upset during the mat make it a point to ask his opinion about it after the match and explain your side and the official is still willing to talk get the head official involved.

Both parties are right. Judgement calls are just that. But at the same time the state of Kansas needs to work on how a ref gets certified. I know when i did it all I did was take the day class and the test and I was certified. I went into my first tournament not really knowing everything and I see it at every tournament. We as coaches will argue each and every call we think should go our kids way. I did it all season long this year, last year and probably how ever long I feel I need to. When you show me a perfect ref I will show you a perfect coach.

Or what about at all major or qualifing tournaments every coach is give a red card.
If you raise your red card the head ref comes over. If he has to overturn a call or finds the ref in error or misconduct on the refs part (profanity, coaching, physical assult) the red card is signed by all 3 people (ref, head ref, and coach). If that ref gets two red cards in a tournament or over a certain period of time then that ref is taken out of the tournament & not used in our state series!

This is just a quick brainstorm idea!
I'm sure we can build on something like this.

Well we didn't have a choice about our pretty new shirts though, as they were provided Saturday evening with the tags still on them, so we had no time to put our patches on them.

You could have went and asked the head official who it was, but I guess it's moot point now.

Both of you are right. Coaches should follow the rules and stop questioning judgement calls from refs and in exchange, we should start being allowed to rate refs. At the end of each tournament, all coaches would be given a form to rate the refs. The refs w/ the highest ratings would be the ones going on, just like the kids.

And if you've never refereed a wrestling tournament, much less a state wrestling tournament than who are you to say who is a good referee and who is not? I suggest that you put on a black and white and go out there and see how easy it is before you lay on the bad mouthing.

Frankly there are a ton of really good officials in the state and many of them won't even work kids events anymore because they are tired of this type of stuff. I would venture to say that the officials who now simply give coaches the one liner of "it's my judgement" has probably grown tired of having to give long explanations for situations that simply break down to ..... JUDGEMENT. I mean honestly how many other ways are there to explain to a coach that the call that was made was in fact judgement? Obviously the coach isn't going to believe the official no matter what they say, and they certainly aren't going to be happy. So why waste 3 minutes taking care of something that can be done in 5 seconds?

Every year more and more of the most talented officials in the state are going away from doing kids events because they are simply tired of it, and thats never going to change as long as the abuse continues. Unfortunately this will have the effect of insuring that with each successive year your perceived notion of who is a good official and who is not is going to get worse, as the state will be forced to find other officials to replace the good ones that don't want to come.

One other thing I must mention. All officials who are working the Kansas State tournament were selected by the clubs themselves. It wasn't like the board members of USAWKS got together and pulled names out of a hat.

Each club is allowed to vote for the officials they wanted to see at the state tournament. So if you have issues then you only have yourselves to blame. I guess I would suggest that if you aren't happy with the officials you see out there, perhaps you should get yourself move involved with the people running your wrestling club, and more specifically the one from your club who sends the names in.

I agree that coaches need to rate refs. There was a ref working on mats 1 and 2 that had no business being at a state tournament. He cost several kids matches with his bad calls. He needs to stick to novice tournaments for a few years and learn the job.

Tom Baughman

USAW Kansas Kids Rules Modifications!

Alex:

What do you believe in the Kansas Kids Rules Modifications prevents a referee from enforcing rule 5-5-2?

The scenario which you describe is a concern and has been discussed by the Kansas Kids Executive Council. It is my understanding this will be a point of emphasis for next season.

There is nothing in the Kansas Kids Rules Mods that prevents myself or any other official from enforcing the rule, but who is going to keep track of all the warnings given by each official? Usually the head official doesn't see every bout sheet so would have no idea on the total number of warnings. We just need some standard protocol concerning the warning(s) issued & enforced, as to who they are reported to, etc.

Also if we do eject a person from a tournament on the basis of Coaches Misconduct, how many tournament personnel will stand behind us and risk losing a club coming to their tournament? It's revenue they feel they need, and don't want to risk it.

Oh Really?
Well then I would like someone to explain what happened in district 2 this year with the ref selections!
There are letters being sent to the executive committee on this exact issue.
I hate to sound all Bush/Gore but I demand a recount!
Lets see if names were not pulled out of a hat! Heck, there wasnt even a hat!

Why not have the votes presented at the district seeding meeting, by all the coaches in the room, so everyone can hear the votes. Have all district awards voted on this way as to put everything out in the open, no more secret ballots. So everyone has the right to hear it aloud.

Wow!
I agree with you LOL!

I absolutely think that refs should do the job they've been contracted to do. Conversely, coaches should allow them to do that job without being berated by every judgement call.

If more officials would start "ringing up" coaches who make a spectacle of themselves and arguing calls, I think, behavior might improve! I know that if I acted the same way at a high school meet, that I saw some coaches acting this weekend, I would be ejected and asked to leave the building. Then a letter would be sent to my school, where I would be on the carpet again!

Now, at times it is a fine line between asking for a rules interpretation and questioning judgement. But even if I am ... I need to do so respectfully!

One of the main problems is COACHES who do not know the rules, and if they do, they don't know how to present their case. I don't think in the last 4 years I have even been warned for arguing a call. At times I question judgement calls. But if done correctly the Ref will explain and not give a warning. This is because I'm asking to understand why he made the call, and not blaming him. Too many coaches go straight to attacking instead of trying to understand. Coaches, learn the rules.

I am not saying I know every rule possible, nor should any coach be required to, but there must be something done to require coaches some sort of refreshment test each year. We as officials, JR. High Coaches, High School Coaches, College Officials, have to take a refresher test every year to get recertified, should we not require those that are teaching our wrestlers how to wrestle to know the legal rules by which they must abide?

Some interesting comments where made on the TOHK topic. Some of the parents made comments on that topic about how their coaches where showing how much they "cared" about their wrestler when they complain about a "bad" call. So I have a question. I would like to know how many coaches are really complaining because they disagree with the call versus how many are complaining so it looks like they are doing their job?.